Being and Non-being

[12345]

Found this to be interesting, just wondering what you people think of this.

Dao is Non-Being8, an existence which follows no laws. Dao's transcendent and unlimited nature sets it apart from all beings possessing form, matter and a specific place in space-time. All concrete beings follow specific laws. Dao, on the other hand, is formless, and is not bound by any concrete laws. It is pure Emptiness9 and Non-Being. The first chapter of the Laozi states that Dao is nameless, and is the Ancestor of Heaven and Earth. This implies that Dao is nameless. The Laozi also states that


"You look at it but cannot see it;
It is called the imageless.
You listen to it but cannot hear it,
It is called the soundless.
You touch it but cannot find it,
It is called the formless.


These three cannot be further inquired into,
For they are the inseparable One.
The One is not bright when it is up,
And not dark when it is down.
Infinite and indistinct, it cannot be named,
Thus reverting to a state of non-thingness.


This is called shape without a shape,
Or image without image.
It is also called the Vague and the Elusive."10


It is thus clear that Dao is formless and imageless, and cannot be attained by human sense organs. According to Laozi, all creatures emerge from 'Being'11, but 'Being' emerges from 'Non-Being'. This Non-Being refers to Dao. Other Daoist scriptures also often use the terms 'Non-Being', 'Emptiness' and so on to designate Dao. In sum, Dao is nameless, formless, and substanceless; it is Non-Being and Emptiness. This is the substance of Dao.

The law of motion of Dao is movement toward the opposite


Laozi's conception of Dao is rich in dialectical thinking. He considered that Dao is in a process of constant cyclical motion, always following the law of return to the opposite. Concepts such as Being and Non-Being, high and low, long and short, before and after are all relative and mutually generating. Fortune and misfortune depend on each other, each always turning into its opposite. Who can master the turning point of these transformations? Why is Dao never in a normal state? Normality will become abnormality, the good shall turn to evil. These deep thoughts were not only inherited by successive generations of later Daoists, but also had a deep influence on the entire body of Chinese philosophy.

eng.taoism.org.hk/daoist-beliefs/great-dao/pg2-1-1-3.htm

[12345]

When Daoist believers talk about existence and non-existence, they regard them in an interrelated and dialectical way. This requires people to attain a higher goal and surpass the distinction between existence and non-existence.

[Nitaidas]

Daoism certainly has much to recommend it and has been a rich tradition in China and more recently in the West. Like most ancient traditions it has a long history and has been through many changes over the thousands of years of its existence. You have mostly quoted from the ancient text known as the Dao De Jing. That text and its later companion by Zhuang Zi are referred to as philosophical Daoism and are distinguished from later Daoism which is called religious Daoism. Naturally, the aspect of Daoism that has found the greatest interest in the West is the philosophical school.

I think that Daoism has the same set of problems that most forms of mysticism have. Daoists try to describe truths that are indescribable or that are beyond language with language. All throughout the passages you have cited the Dao is called nameless and formless, but it is always called the Dao, which is a name. The Dao means the Way and thus is named and named in a very interesting and useful way. Chinese sage after Chinese sage has talked about how the problem of human society and indeed all of the world is that it has not followed or harmonized with the Way. Thus, the major goal in Chinese religion, both Confucianism and Daoism, is to discover harmony with the Dao and act according to it. There is nothing transcendental about the Dao. The Dao is the world and much more than the world, namely its source, but it is not a something apart from the world. Those who represent it as transcendent are misrepresenting it and misrepresenting Chinese religion in general which is very down to earth and even worldly. This is what is refreshing about it in many ways.

Another major problem with philosophical Daoism is that there is no process by which one can realize the truth of Daoism. Certainly reading the texts helps open one's mind and is uplifting, but the process of meditation or cultivation if there was one has been lost or is only hinted at in the texts. All present day teachers of Daoism are drawing on the later tradition of religious Daoism which is much like yoga and tantrism in India. In fact, religious Daoism seems to have developed largely as a response to the invasion of Buddhism into China shortly before the beginning of the Common Era.

Anyway, it is a great, rich tradition and like all ancient traditions needs to be studied carefully without the modern distortions. I recommend reading Zhuang Zi if you have a chance. It is both funny and thought-provoking. Here is a free version of the Dao De Jing here. And the Zhuang Zi here.

[Nitaidas]

Philosophically speaking, I don't think that Daoism is in disagreement with CV, especially with CV as viewed as resting on the simultaneous difference and non-difference of ultimate truth. Difference is "being" and is represented by the Sanskrit verb asti, "it is." Non-difference is "non-being" and is represented by the same Sanskrit verb in the negative, nAsti, "it is not." Thus the truth is both simultaneously and cannot be conceived of logically. Logic breaks down when it is used to characterize the absolute. Logic arises from logos, meaning the word, and thus to say the something escapes logic is to say the it cannot be entirely captured in words, ie., that that something is nameless and yet like the Dao it is also named. The names preferred in CV are those names that identify the most attractive aspects of the supreme, like Krsna (the dark one, or the attractive one) and Govinda (the pleaser of the senses, etc.).

[12345]

Awesome dude, Thanks for the links.

[Nitaidas]

Nov 29, 2009 20:13:30 GMT -6 12345 said:

Awesome dude, Thanks for the links.

That is a great website. One can find religious texts there from every tradition. The texts are older and thus sometimes do not reflect the most modern level of research, but for an approximate idea of what a text or tradition believes and practices, it is very useful.

In the case of Daoism there are some classic old translations there. New manuscripts have been found that modify our understanding of early Daoism, but for our purposes those need not be considered. Anyway, Daoism is in many ways sexier than CV because of its connection with certain longevity practices and the martial arts like Tai chi.

[12345]

Hi Nitaidas,
Yes it is very interesting as i train in Wing Tsun Kuen Kung fu which has its roots going back to the burning of the Shaolin temple by the Manchurians. My school is part of the Ip Man line of chinese kung fu.
I have read that kung fu is a mix of ancient chinese Dao tai chi which was further changed when the bodhidharma reach Mt Wutang and added more martial exercises from buddhism.
I love practicisng the Siu Nim Tao which means the "little way" or "little idea" from what i have read.
I have noticed so far that the internalizing aspect takes alot longer to master than the external. When i practice this Siu Nim Tao i notice energy builds up deep within me, it's hard to explain but it just feels good.

[Nitaidas]

Dec 1, 2009 13:49:10 GMT -6 12345 said:

Hi Nitaidas,
Yes it is very interesting as i train in Wing Tsun Kuen Kung fu which has its roots going back to the burning of the Shaolin temple by the Manchurians. My school is part of the Ip Man line of chinese kung fu.
I have read that kung fu is a mix of ancient chinese Dao tai chi which was further changed when the bodhidharma reach Mt Wutang and added more martial exercises from buddhism.
I love practicisng the Siu Nim Tao which means the "little way" or "little idea" from what i have read.
I have noticed so far that the internalizing aspect takes alot longer to master than the external. When i practice this Siu Nim Tao i notice energy builds up deep within me, it's hard to explain but it just feels good.

Interesting. How long have you practiced? I used to practice Tai Chi when I was in grad school (long ago). It was a great relief from the books. I really enjoyed some of the movements like "Carry the lion cub back to the mountain." I always felt rejuvenated and refreshed after doing it. Later when I did some Hatha yoga, the combination called the Surya-namaskara (Sun Salutation) had a similar effect on me. Breath, prana in India or chi in China, are conceived of along similar lines in the two cultures.

There seems to have been very ancient ties between the two cultures. One scholar of the Daoist tradition (Victor H Mair) suggests that the Dao De Jing was influenced by the Bhagavad-gita or by the milieu within which it was composed. Conversely, some Sanskrit tantrik texts have special sections devoted to what is called cinacara, or tantrik-style practices imported from China. There seems to have been regular and very early exchanges of ideas and practices between India and China. Control of breath conceived of as not only visible breathing but as the subtle operations of the whole nervous system seems to lie at the root of the internal cultivations of both systems.

By the way, I highly recommend Victor Mair's translations of both the Dao De Jing and the Zhuang Zi. I've used both in my classes before and have found them extremely illuminating. Unfortunately, not in the public domain, so they are not free.

[12345]

I have only been doing it for a year, I just turned 28 the other day.
the Siu Nim tao is the first part of the 3 part system, after that comes Chum Kiu then Biu Jee and then you learn the weapons forms. There are alot of triangle and circle motions in our system which definitely originates back to Tai Chi and some of the buddha palm techniques Bodhidharma brought with him from india and his travels
Most definitely there was ancient contact going back well before 5,000 years ago.

Do you know much about the "There Treasures" describe as Shen, Jing and Qi. I have only just started to get into this stuff.
As i was thinking they always talk of independent souls and how we transmigrate from plants to animals etc( i like to keep humans in the animal realm because thats what our physical form is animal.)
But i was thinking what about a clipping from a plant or genes taken from you and you get clones, is it a new spirit that enters or some other type of energy that enters the empty vessel?.

[Nitaidas]

Dec 2, 2009 22:40:12 GMT -6 12345 said:

I have only been doing it for a year, I just turned 28 the other day.
the Siu Nim tao is the first part of the 3 part system, after that comes Chum Kiu then Biu Jee and then you learn the weapons forms. There are alot of triangle and circle motions in our system which definitely originates back to Tai Chi and some of the buddha palm techniques Bodhidharma brought with him from india and his travels
Most definitely there was ancient contact going back well before 5,000 years ago.

Do you know much about the "There Treasures" describe as Shen, Jing and Qi. I have only just started to get into this stuff.
As i was thinking they always talk of independent souls and how we transmigrate from plants to animals etc( i like to keep humans in the animal realm because thats what our physical form is animal.)
But i was thinking what about a clipping from a plant or genes taken from you and you get clones, is it a new spirit that enters or some other type of energy that enters the empty vessel?.

Well happy belated birthday! I can almost remember being 28 once, back in the dim twilight of antiquity.

A year's time is a goodly investment. How long will it take you to complete the training, do you think?

No, I don't know anything about the three treasures (except the Buddhist ones). Shen I think means spirit. Jing in my experience means book or classic text and Qi is the old spelling of chi or subtle breath/energy. Are these the three treasures?

Interesting question. I suspect the Indic traditions would suggest that new souls are joined with the new bodies, but I cannot be sure about that. That is to say, not that a soul is ever new, but that there are an infinite number of souls not associated with bodies and one of those, one whose karmic history is most like the one being cloned, would be drawn to the new body.

But this is just the question we are trying to tackle on another thread. What is the self? I am more inclined these days to prefer an understanding the blends the best of the reflections of the past as found in the ancient Hindu tradition with the insights provided by modern science, which is more similar to the old Buddhist reflections on or critiques of the idea of a permanent self. Anyway it is a difficult problem if one doesn't want to just toe the party line.

[12345]

Hello.
To complete training depends on one's self and how much effort(hours/experience) one is willing to put in to train the motor skills(receptors/neuron etc). On average it takes about 5-7 years to produce a good Wing Tsun practitioner. What is the self is definitely a hard one. But then i think how would we ever discern/distinguish what a self is from having no self, both having "No Self' and having a "Self" for a certain manifested cycle may help us understand what a "Self" is from a "No Self". It's like discerning existence from Non existence, Maybe! thats just what pop into my head for the moment anyway.

I found this about the Three treasures----

'There are three treasures in the human body. These are known as Jing, Qi and Shen. Of these three, only Qi has received some recognition in the West so far. Qi is but one of the Three Treasures---the other two are equally wondrous.

Jing has been called the 'superior ultimate' treasure, even though even in a healthy, glowing body, the quantity is small. Jing existed before the body existed, and this Jing enters the body tissues and becomes the root of our body. When we keep Jing within our body, our body can be vigorous. If a person cares for the Cavity of Jing, and does not hurt it recklessly, it is very easy to enjoy a life of great longevity. Without Jing Energy, we cannot live.

Qi is the invisible life force which enables the body to think and perform voluntary movement. The power of Qi can be seen in the power that enables a person to move and live. It can be seen in the movement of energy in the cosmos and in all other movements and changes. Coming from heaven into the body through the nose (Yang Gate), it circulates through the twelve meridians to nourish and preserve the inner organs.

Shen energy is similar to the English meaning of the words 'Mind' and 'Spirit.' It is developed by the combination of Jing and Qi energy. When these two treasures are in balance, the mind is strong, the spirit is great, the emotions are under control, and the body is strong and healthy. But it is very difficult to expect a sound mind to be cultivated without sound Jing and Qi. An old proverb says that 'a sound mind lives in a sound body.' When cultivated, Shen will bring peace of mind.

When we develop Jing, we get a large amount of Qi automatically. When we have a large amount of Qi, we will also have strong Shen, and we will become bright and glowing as a holy man.'

Jing is the first Treasure and is translated as 'Regenerative Essence,' or simply as 'Essence.' Jing is the refined energy of the body. It provides the foundation for all activity and is said to be the 'root' of our vitality. Jing is the primal energy of life and is closely associated with our genetic potential, and is associated with the aging process. Jing is stored energy and provides the reserves required to adapt to all the various stresses encountered in life. Since Jing is concentrated energy, it manifests materially. Jing also is said to control a number of primary human functions: the reproductive organs and their various substances and functions; the power and clarity of the mind; and the integrity of one's physical structure. Jing, which is a blend of Yin and Yang energy, is said to be stored in the 'Kidney.' Jing is generally associated these days with the hormones of the reproductive and adrenal glands, and Jing is the vital essence concentrated in the sperm and ova.

When Jing is strong, vitality and youthfulness remain. Strong Jing energy in the Kidneys, so the Chinese say, will lead to a long and vigorous life, while a loss of Jing will result in physical and mental degeneration and a shortening of one's life. Jing is essential to life and when it runs low our life force is severely diminished and thus we lose all power to adapt. The quantity of Essence determines both our life span and the ultimate vitality of our life. Jing is burned up in the body by life itself, but most especially by chronic and acute stress and excessive behavior, including overwork, excessive emotionalism, substance abuse, chronic pain or illness, and sexual excess (especially in men). Excessive menstrual patterns, pregnancy and childbirth can result in a dramatic drain on the Jing of a woman, especially in middle aged women. When Jing is depleted below a level required to survive, we die. Eventually everyone runs out of Jing and thus everyone dies (at least physically).

Qi, the second Treasure, is the energy that creates our vitality. Through the constant interaction of Yin and Yang, the two moving powers of the universe, change is brought into being and life exists. Qi is the activity of Yin and Yang. All movement, all functioning, and all thought is the result of Qi. The nature of Qi is to move. In the Three Treasures system includes both Energy and Blood. It nourishes and protects us. Qi is said to be produced as a result of the functions of the Lungs and Spleen. Therefore, Qi tonics strengthen the digestive, assimilative and respiratory functions.

When Qi condenses, it becomes Jing. Fast moving Qi is considered to be Yang while slow moving Qi is Yin. In the system of the Three Treasures, blood is considered to be a part of the Qi component of our being. Blood is said to be produced from the food ingested after the Qi has been extracted through the action of the Spleen. The red blood cells are said to be nutritive and are thus associated with the Ying Qi (Yin), while the white blood cells are protective and are associated with Wei Qi (Yang). Qi tonics are generally believed to have potent immune modulating activity. Qi tonics, composed of Energy and/or Blood tonics, increase our ability to function fully and adaptively as human beings.

Shen is the third Treasure. Shen is the guiding Spirit which directs Qi. This is ultimately the most important of the Three Treasures because it reflects our higher nature as human beings. Chinese masters say that Shen is the all-embracing love that resides in our Heart. Shen is the spiritual radiance of a human being and is the ultimate and most refined level of energetics in the universe. Shen is not considered to be an emotion, or even a state of mind. It presides over the emotions and manifests as all-encompassing compassion, and non-discriminating, non-judgemental awareness. Shen is expressed as love, compassion, kindness, generosity, acceptance, forgiveness and tolerance.

Even though nature manifests dualistically and cyclically, often obscuring our vision and creating illusion, Shen is our higher knowledge that everything is one. It manifests as our wisdom and our ability to see all sides of all issues, our ability to rise above the world of right and wrong, good and bad, yours and mine, high and low, etc.


I found this information at this site.
www.sciforums.com/Qi-Shen-and-Jing-energy-t-49004.html

[Nitaidas]

Thanks for this long account, 12345. I got two of the three more or less right. Jing is not what I thought it was. I don't believe I have heard about this before. Nevertheless, I will take a risk and suggest similarities with the Hindu tradition.

Jing sounds rather like what is known in India as the Kundalini-sakti, the sleeping coiled power at the base of the spine. On awakening it rises up the spine piercing the various cakras and filling the body of the sadhaka with power. It too is thought to be a universal power, the goddess power.

Qi sounds like prana, as I think I mentioned before, though there are no doubt differences in understanding and conception between the Chinese and Indian traditions.

Shen as the mind or spirit could be either manas or atman. Sometimes atman means manas and sometimes consciousness or self. Conceived of as an entity that survives the death of the body, it is the subtle body which is the vehicle of reincarnation in Hindu belief. Shen in Chinese also means ghost and thus it has been used for ghostly manifestations as well as for mind/spirit. In the three treasures you describe, is it regarded as capable of survival beyond the death of the body?

Anyway, it is interesting stuff, blending medicine, psychology, and religion.

Though the Kundalini is a tantric or Agamic teaching. I have found a Caitanyite text that discusses it in the context of bhakti-sadhana. It is not with me at present, but when I get back to k-ville, I will post the relevant passages.

Have you been able to walk on a cushion of Qi yet? That is one of the signs of advancement that my old Tai Chi teachers used to refer to. Expect not since you have only been at it for a year. Anyway, that to look forward to!

[12345]

Greetings,
I asked a Chinese fellow this question he owns a Vegetarian cafe.
He said when Qi and Jing are out of balance then there is chaos and so Shen cannot transcend...but when Jing and Qi and shen are all in balance then there is transcendence.

Going back into this discussion i asked about plant clippings etc...
He also said that Qi and Jing energies are the fundamentals for plant energy.

Sorry but no cushion of air yet, but with practice comes perfection(well perfection as we know it! because some individuals perfection may be of higher quality and quantity perfection compared to other individuals quality's and quantity's of perfection. Thus giving us distinctions and discernments of the different levels of quality and quantity's in perfection....but everyone can be perfect according to there own natural way of quality's and quantity's for that individual?.)

[Nitaidas]

Dec 19, 2009 20:05:46 GMT -6 12345 said:

Greetings,
I asked a Chinese fellow this question he owns a Vegetarian cafe.
He said when Qi and Jing are out of balance then there is chaos and so Shen cannot transcend...but when Jing and Qi and shen are all in balance then there is transcendence.

Going back into this discussion i asked about plant clippings etc...
He also said that Qi and Jing energies are the fundamentals for plant energy.

Sorry but no cushion of air yet, but with practice comes perfection(well perfection as we know it! because some individuals perfection may be of higher quality and quantity perfection compared to other individuals quality's and quantity's of perfection. Thus giving us distinctions and discernments of the different levels of quality and quantity's in perfection....but everyone can be perfect according to there own natural way of quality's and quantity's for that individual?.)

What exactly does transcend mean in this context? What about reincarnation? Is it the Shen that is considered the permanent self in this tradition. Traditionally, China accepted the idea of there being two souls, one was called po; I forget the name of the other. Suppose I should freshen up on this topic since I will be teaching world religions in the Spring. Anyway, if the spirit is not honored and fed at the yearly ancestral rites, it gradually fades out of existence. There is no belief in a permanent, undying soul in ancient Chinese religion. The idea of bringing things into balance, however, or harmony is fundamental to all forms of Chinese religious belief and practice. That seems to be the unchanging foundation.

Are plants also the abodes of Shen?

It is not really so much walking on air as being held up by some sort of chi energy. I once saw a group demonstrate what can only be described as "body armor" in Chicago. That too was the result of the cultivation of chi.

yes. perfection is a disputed and disputable conception. I prefer to use the word "accomplished" for the Sanskrit siddha which many translated as "perfected."

[12345]

(What exactly does transcend mean in this context?)
(http://www.adishakti.org/_/taoist_mystical_experience.htm) REST OF INFO HERE...

While the Taoist mystical experience also involves internal reflection, both immanence and transcendence occur. Tao not only lies within the human "veiled in our consciousness by the artificiality's of civilization" (Eliade 291), but transcends all that it has created - Man, Earth and Nature. As Sidney Spencer states in his book Mysticism in World Religion, "the Tao is the Source of all things; it is self-existent; it transcends time and space" (Spencer 99). Tao is spiritually elevated not only as the Way of Ultimate Reality, but as the Way of the Universe - Smith's second and significant meaning of Tao The Daoist concept of immortality does not mean you live physically forever. Immortality means you achieve spiritual integration of your authentic self (zhenren).



Your authentic Self is immortal because it has the power to survive the transition of physical death and continues its life in higher dimensions. This process requires integrating the physical body’s sexual essence (jing)it's western equivalent is DNA, the energy body (qi), and the spirit body (shen) into a functional state of total openness (wu) to the multi-dimensionality of the present moment. The spiritual power of manifestation hidden within the sexual essence is most critical to cultivating what is known as a “golden light body” or the authentic immortal Self. Without the sexual essence being properly cultivated, the crystallization of one’s spirit does not occur.

Taoism disavows a hierarchical view of the self, society, or cosmos. Unlike Confucianism, Taoism does not regard the self as an extension of, and defined by, social relationships. Rather, the self is but one of the countless manifestations of the Tao. It is an extension of the cosmos.

It should be emphasized that Chuang-tzu's conception of selflessness does not entail an ontological denial of the self--as in Buddhism, according to which there is no such entity to begin with. Life is not regarded as inherent misery, as in Buddhism; rather, sorrow as well as joy are taken for grant as part of life. Even death is accepted without lamentation, as an integral, though inevitable, part of endless cosmic change. Selflessness is really the philosophical attitude of being identified with the Tao--an attitude that leads to acceptance of both life and death. Further, it encompasses both tranquillity and activity, unlike the Buddhist notion of total quiescence in the state of Nirvana. The selfless person retains human attributes like sageliness and kingliness--unlike the Hindu metaphysical belief that personal identity is totally "lost" with the dissolution of the self in Brahman (cf. Graham, 1989, p. 176, on this point).
When selflessness is attained, the distinction between "I" and "other" disappears. One may then act with complete spontaneity. The mind becomes like a mirror, free from obstinacies and prejudices. Thus one's thinking is to be liberated from not only external social constrictions but also internal psychological impediments. This idea of thought liberation--transcending one's egocentricity--occupies a central place in Chuang-tzu's writings (F. K. Hsu, 1963, pp. 400-405). He states:
To be impartial and nonpartisan; to be compliant and selfless; to
be free from insistence and prejudice; to take things as they
come; to be without worry or care; to accept all and mingle with
all--these were some of the aspects of the system of the Tao
among the ancients.... Their fundamental idea was the equality of all things. They said: ".... The great Tao is all-embracing without making distinctions." (quoted from de Bary et al., 1960, p. 81)
Here is a paradox indeed. Chuang-tzu's assault on analysis ("making distinctions") reflects the power of his own analytic faculty.
As yet, there is virtually no research on the psychological consequences of Taoism. Nonetheless, it seems reasonable to say that psychological decentering and equalitarianism would be fostered. Psychological decentering is implied in the notion of selflessness, the distinction between "I" and "other" being absent (discussed further in the Psychological Decentering subsection below); it follows naturally from the perspective that the individual is humbled in the cosmic scale of things.


(What about reincarnation?)

Birth is not a beginning; death is not an end. There is existence without limitation; there is continuity without a starting point.
Existence without limitation is space. Continuity without a starting point is time. There is birth, there is death, there is issuing forth, there is entering in. That through which one passes in and out without seeing its form, that is the Portal of God (Chuang Tzu)


(Are plants also the abodes of Shen?)\
The chinese fellow said that plants only had jing and Qi energy's there is no Shen/zhen energy which is the all en-compassing consciousness.