Choices and Karma

[12345]

i have a question about Choices and Karma.
I watched a program the other night about a Bi-polar manic depression man who killed his twin daughters. I was wondering about the choices...as this man was affected by Bi-polar and he was not thinking right because his brain was not working properly. So why should this man get bad Karma if he has some brain disorder which makes him not think properly causing mis-function in choice decisions?.
This brain disorder has affected his choice. The program was about how the wife has forgiven her husband for this act and visits him in jail everyday, as he is serving a life sentence for killing his twin daughters.

Interesting question I hope you people know what I'm trying to write and explain.

[Ldd]

Anyone who is not devoted to Krishna constantly suffers from the dualities - good or bad karma.
We don't know the extent of the guy's evil, despite his alibi of illness.
Yama has a way of finding out the truth and then Durga through her agencies will inflict due punishment. You can't fool the gods with excuses. Their punishment is always fair, whether we like it or not.

[12345]

now why is it that this krsna is the cause of all causes yet we suffer because of this krsna. Because it is tha cause of all causes, thus this krsna is the one to blame for all this discernible good bad duality in the first place.
I find it amusing that anthropomorphism is rampant in alot of religious text, why do we always need to bring a god into the equation, as far as im concern the equation fits better without the involvement of anthropomorphic gods.
You do not have to be devoted to krsna to escape duality because without duality then there is no discernible distinction of what good and bad is. And so these dualitys are actually needed for choice decisions we make in life.

[12345]

When you made a 'choice', you will have to face a certain consequence.
If your 'choice' is a conscious choice, then you will consciously accept the consequence.
But if your 'choice' is an unconscious one, then you tend to reject the consequence.
This is normal human reaction.
Bi-polar depression, killing his twin daughters, sentenced to life imprisonment, his wife's forgiveness and his present feeling and condition are part of the karma. Only people involved in these series of happening can appreciate this situation. Others can only guess or try to understand, but will not understand. Bad or good karma is very subjective.
What you thought is bad might not be taken as bad by others.
There are more things involved but I will not get into too detail. For example,
Why was he affected by Bi-polar disorder?
Why he killed his twin daughter, not his dog, or neighbor, or wife?
Why his wife chose to forgive him? etc....
KARMA is not only 'Cause' and 'effect'.
We need to understand our own behavior, temperament, value system, etc..
Self control and self discipline are also very important, to prevent chaos in time of unbalance situation.
Know Thyself.

[Nitaidas]

Nov 24, 2009 2:32:41 GMT -6 12345 said:

now why is it that this krsna is the cause of all causes yet we suffer because of this krsna. Because it is tha cause of all causes, thus this krsna is the one to blame for all this discernible good bad duality in the first place.
I find it amusing that anthropomorphism is rampant in alot of religious text, why do we always need to bring a god into the equation, as far as im concern the equation fits better without the involvement of anthropomorphic gods.
You do not have to be devoted to krsna to escape duality because without duality then there is no discernible distinction of what good and bad is. And so these dualitys are actually needed for choice decisions we make in life.

Humm. There seems to be some confusions mixed in with this set of statements. You talk about choice, but refer to Krsna as the cause of all causes and therefore negate choice. If he causes everything then we have no choice. I don't think that the phrase sarvakAraNakArana was meant in that sense. It precludes the effect of ignorance in the living beings, for one thing. The idea of ignorance is meaningless unless it causes the living being to choose poorly and thus wind up in trouble. Ignorance causes this state of bahirmukhatA that is at the root of the CV analysis of the problems faced by the jiva. BahirmukhatA means the state of having turned one's face away from Krsna to his outer powers or energies. This makes no sense unless it is done by choice and under the influence of ignorance. Power in this sense is pure efficacy. It brings things about without the necessity of Krsna's intervention. One can think of it as pure causation and that is what is meant by karma, action that begets results which in turn become the causes of the next results, and so on. This process needs no gods to oversee it. Power would not be power if it needed to be constantly intervened in. In that sense it is impersonal, though it is sometimes referred to in personal terms.

Anthropomorphism is indeed an interesting phenomenon, but it may not be as simple and silly as it is often made out to be. If, for instance, we are part of the truth, then there must be in the ultimate truth something of what we are, conscious personalities, whatever that means. To believe that that is all there is in the ultimate truth is of course a silly and mistaken idea, and perhaps this is what should be called anthropomorphism in a pejorative sense. Krsna is clearly larger than that. We cannot understand him as he is in his fullness. That is what is meant when the teachers of CV have embraced the idea of difference and non-difference. He is like us and not like us. His is us and is not us and that in the same way and at the same time. This last point is what ushers in the inconceivability of the claim. It breaks the rule of non-contradiction established by Aristotle so long ago and thus moves us beyond the realm of rational or logical discourse. Perhaps we should not stray there, but perhaps, too, we cannot help ourselves.

I am not sure what you mean by being devoted to Krsna to escape duality. Devotion to Krsna requires and nourishes duality. A bhakta does not want to escape dualism. A bhakta revels in dualism. Philosophically speaking, however, bhakti also presupposes monism or non-duality. Two things that are completely different cannot be related and bhakti is a form of relationship. Thus, it cannot exist between things or beings that are completely different.

Anyway, good question. Difficult question. You are right to suggest that we do not know what the circumstances are surrounding the man who killed his daughters as a result of his illness. On the face of it it would seem that he had no choice in the matter and should not be held responsible for his actions. On the other hand, he is clearly dangerous and has to be prevented from doing something like it again. We had a similar case here a week ago. A man strangled his wife of thirty years in his sleep. He, too, suffered from a rare sleep disorder and did not choose or intend to kill his wife. He woke up with his hands around her neck. He was released without having to go to prison. If I were a family member, however, I would feel more than a bit nervous about sleeping anywhere near him. Karmically, the question is complex. The diseases are possibly the result of past karma or simple fate (adrsti). People forget that Hinduism also recognizes fate or the unseen or chance. Not everything is explainable by karma. Moreover, given the fact that people knew about these conditions before hand, not doing something to try to prevent them adds a level of conscious choice that has to be taken into consideration as well.

[Ekantin]

"It has always appeared to me more satisfactory to look at the immense amount of pain & suffering in this world, as the inevitable result of the natural sequence of events, i.e. general laws, rather than from the direct intervention of God." (Charles Darwin, letter extracts)

The case of this bi-polar individual is one among many millions of similar cases, plenty of which have caused me to re-evaluate my understandings of karma, reincarnation, and similar things. It strikes me that one who is steeped in theology would offer a scriptural response about karma, perhaps with a semi-compassionate shrug of their shoulders in sympathy with the individual. But do these 'karmic' explanations suffice to explain the complexities of real events taking place in a real world?

It may be very well to say something like, "oh it's their karma and it'll work itself out" but would you say that if these people were your nearest and dearest? Is it humanistic to say such things? I think not. And I think that as more people come across such cases and think deeply about what real events mean for their beliefs, they'll also re-evaluate their beliefs to fit what goes on in the real world.

[12345]

Found this to be interesting..

The Dao does not interfere8, but is not inactive9


The creative function of Dao does not express itself by sending down specific orders. It does not interfere, but lets each being follow its won nature and spontaneously grow and develop, from Non-Being to Being and from Being to Non-Being. This is called 'Non-Interference'10. All beings have an end, and their functions may only express themselves through action. But for this reason, their functions are always limited, and cannot be maintained indefinitely. Laozi said that the great wind cannot blow over the whole sky, and the rain cannot fall the whole night. The actions of Heaven and Earth cannot be maintained forever, much less those of people. The Great Dao is different: it lets the myriad beings to be born and develop, while remaining in a state of Non-Interference - it can never be exhausted. For this reason, Laozi said: Dao does not interfere, but is not inactive. The Great Dao gives birth to all, but never takes possession of them; it accomplishes everything, but claims no credit for itself. Those who study and practise Dao should also follow the Great Dao, and seek after Purity and Tranquility11, and Non-Interference.