Greetings from London

[Nitaidas]

Greetings all. Sorry for my long silence on this forum. It has been a trying month and a half made up of the usual "pilgrimages" to visit aging parents, both mine and my wife's, and lots a packing for this extended trip to London, England. We also had house-painting and repair, baby-sitting, and preparing the house for our house sitters to contend with during this period. Whew! I feel exhausted, but my spirits are beginning to pick up here in sunny London town.

I feel deeply responsible for this forum since it is my brain-child such as it is and I am sorry whenever I have to leave it for extended periods. Now that I am more or less settled in here I expect to devote more time and attention to it. I feel it is my duty as a card-carrying member of the Caitanyite community to make myself available for "sanga" as it were. There aren't very many of us operating in the West and it feels like we have a responsibility to represent the community as truly and as best we can. I have not always followed that code. There are not very many genuine (full) members of the community on this site. Who are they? There is Sakhicarandasji, Bisakhadevi, Jagadish das, Radhapada das, Minaketan Ram das (Harold or Mojo108 in his most recent incarnations), Malati perhaps, and well me. I think that Madanmohandas ji is too since he is initiated by Gadadhar Pran, a disciple of Sri Lalita Prasad Thakur. Did I miss anyone?

Yes, this is a determination based on initiation or diksa. That is how one joins the mainstream community of Caitanya Vaisnavas. Is diska necessary in order to develop prema and have saksat darsana? No, probably not.

Is diksa necessary for one to become a full member of the Caitanya Vaisnava community? Yes, it is. The mainstream Caitanya Vaisnava community is a community like any other community. It determines how one becomes a member of that community and has every right to do so. Joining the community (sampradaya) is like joining any other fraternity or sorority or group. There are certain rules for membership and certain processes and rites. One who does not follow those rules and processes is not accepted as a member of the community by other members of the community. That person may be extraordinarily gifted and have visions of Radha and Krsna, but they are still not accepted as members of the community and are not treated as full members.

So I don't see how pursuing a philosophical and practical orientation such as I have called "Sane Vaisnavism" is in any way in conflict with insisting on the necessity of diksa for joining the community. Whether on thinks of diksa as conveying spiritual power or not, it is a requirement for joining the community specified by the community. And what a community it is, encompassing the likes of Sanatana Goswami, Rupa Goswami, Jiva Goswami, Raghunatha in its founding days and the likes of Siddha Krsna Das Babaji, Siddha Caitanya Das Babaji, Bodo Baba, Siddha Ram Krisha Pandit Das Babaji, Vijayakrishna Goswami, Ramdas Babaji, Siddha Manohar Das Babaji, and so forth and so on. It is an honor to be a member of such a sangha. For whatever reason, Bhaktisiddhanta and his companions and followers decided not to join that sangha. That is fine, but one shouldn't claim to be if one is not.

Are all of us therefore alike because we are all part of the same community? Certainly not. Some are more traditional in their approach and participation in the community and others, like myself, are more forward looking and rational in our approach to the community. I will talk more about my views as a radical empiricist in the coming days and weeks. I think CV lends itself well to this point of view and I will explain that in more detail later.

[spiritualbhakti]

"There are not very many genuine (full) members of the community on this site. Who are they? There is Sakhicarandasji, Bisakhadevi, Jagadish das, Radhapada das, Minaketan Ram das (Harold or Mojo108 in his most recent incarnations), Malati perhaps, and well me. I think that Madanmohandas ji is too since he is initiated by Gadadhar Pran, a disciple of Sri Lalita Prasad Thakur. Did I miss anyone?"

Yes you forgot me
just kidding, glad to be in this sanga and hope it gets fired up some more.

[Sakhicharan Das]

Jai Nitai!

Nitai Dasji, you forgot my gurubhai Subrata Ji.

[Nitaidas]

Aug 31, 2009 3:54:11 GMT -6 Sakhicharan Das said:

Jai Nitai!

Nitai Dasji, you forgot my gurubhai Subrata Ji.

Right! Sorry about that. Subrataji is also an important and active member of the community.

[Nitaidas]

Aug 30, 2009 9:45:34 GMT -6 spiritualbhakti said:

"There are not very many genuine (full) members of the community on this site. Who are they? There is Sakhicarandasji, Bisakhadevi, Jagadish das, Radhapada das, Minaketan Ram das (Harold or Mojo108 in his most recent incarnations), Malati perhaps, and well me. I think that Madanmohandas ji is too since he is initiated by Gadadhar Pran, a disciple of Sri Lalita Prasad Thakur. Did I miss anyone?"

Yes you forgot me
just kidding, glad to be in this sanga and hope it gets fired up some more.

Glad you are here. We may have to borrow some of your enthusiasm. It is refreshing to witness. I will look at some of your questions and see if there is anything I have to say that might be useful to you. I encourage the others to as well. Just because we are members of the community does not mean that we have all of the answers. We are all struggling with difficult questions too. Most of us no longer have access to our gurus and it may be that we would not understand their answers fully if we did.

[Nitaidas]

It is great to be here in London. I love the town and the country. I am looking forward to an active and rewarding four months. I have already renewed my reader's card at the British Library and am anticipating delving into some areas I could not get to the last time I was here. I am interested in exploring in more depth that journal that was published at the beginning of the 20th century by Nityasvarup Brahmacari and who knows maybe there are some more materials on Premananda Bharati. Perhaps his novel Jim was published here or perhaps there is a complete collection of his journal here. In addition I would like to get my hands on the book in mixed Bengali and Sanskrit called the Dasamula by Bipinbihari Goswami, the guru of Bhaktivinoda. It is supposed to be a masterly presentation of CV theology and practice.

I also brought a few books with me that I will be working on. The work by Sundarananda Vidyavinode on the Mahamantra is with me and I will over the next few months add to that translation. I also have Kunjabihari Das Baba's book on rasa and will work on that. So look for updates on those. There are also a few surprises I brought with me. Keep an eye out.

Most of all I want to try to develop my thinking on what I have been calling Sane Vaisnavism, a form of modern, rational Vaisnavism that is aware of and respectful towards the tradition but which places CV firmly in the modern historical and scientific context. We have some good thinkers and good critics here, Ekanta and buddy and others and if we are kind to each other we ought to be able to construct a dialog between ourselves that will help us fashion a new Vaisnavism fit for the modern era out of the materials and hints bequeathed to us by our elders. I think it is possible, but I don't know it is so. Let us see. We will never know for sure unless we give it a try.

I think a good starting point for a saner Vaisnavism is what I have been calling radical empiricism. What I mean by this is the idea that nothing comes into our minds or our knowledge but through our senses. In other words, sense perception or pratyaksa is the only real, reliable basis for knowledge. This may at first blush seem to contradict the received CV position, but a careful reading of the relevant texts reveals that this has been the standard all along. Most folks just don't think it through.

Then there is the problem of religion or more specifically theism. Most of you already know something about my views on this and probably find them insane or embarrassing. Maybe they are, but if they are that has not yet been made apparent to me. I think of religion and theism as distorted views of the nature of reality, views that are deeply harmful to the development of the individual in the growth of bhakti. What is more I see resources in received CV that I believe are meant to help us overcome these distortions. A careful and thoughtful reading of the traditional texts will reveal those resources and point us in useful directions.

Well, these are some of the "treats" ahead along with my usual translations and Krsna-katha. It all starts from careful reading and thoughtful thinking. As the Upanisads say: srotavyah mantavyah nididhyasitavyah, "[the truth] is to be heard, thought about, and meditated upon." The result is that it will be seen (drastavyah).
Note the order here, by the way. It all begins with the senses, in this case the ears.

[fiorafemere]

I agree with you fully on CV's power to clear confusion that religious movements have created in general. I am just not clear in understanding when you say "saner Visnavism". I think it already exists. As you mention above, "a form of modern, rational Vaisnavism that is aware of and respectful towards the tradition but which places CV firmly in the modern historical and scientific context." Isn't this already there, unless you are looking for mutual approval of traditional view towards modern one and vice verse.

[Nitaidas]

Aug 31, 2009 22:51:51 GMT -6 fiorafemere said:

I agree with you fully on CV's power to clear confusion that religious movements have created in general. I am just not clear in understanding when you say "saner Visnavism". I think it already exists. As you mention above, "a form of modern, rational Vaisnavism that is aware of and respectful towards the tradition but which places CV firmly in the modern historical and scientific context." Isn't this already there, unless you are looking for mutual approval of traditional view towards modern one and vice verse.

I don't think traditional Vaisnavism (CV) fits very well into our modern historical and scientific context. One has to choose one or the other and that goes against our fundamental needs. We have, as I see it, two fundamental needs: a need for knowledge and a need for love. The only reliable source of knowledge is science and the only truly satisfying fulfillment of the need for love is bhakti. Yet, the two are often at loggerheads.

Do you really think we are in the Age of Kali? Do you really think that the universe is like the inside of a coconut? Do you think that somewhere in the middle of an ocean lies a sleeping giant with coconut universes bubbling out of his pores?

[fiorafemere]

Sciense is a reliable source of knowledge to a certain degree after which becomes a fairy tale like religious teachings. What CV is, path of knowledge or bhakti? Does the path of knowledge continues as the path of bhakti when the goal is achieved?
I do not see reconciliation point between Bhagavatam's descriptions and a sceintific proof we have at hand.
I have a question: What is the purpose of CV, to be placed into historical and scientific context or to lead aspiring/eager souls to expressions of love?

[madanmohandas]

Greetings. Welcome to merry England Nitai mahasoy. What coconuts? I understood it as a golden egg. The descent of Ganga as described in Valmiki's Ramayana is fantastic. He describes how the flood desended from the sky so vividly one might well believe it. I know Nitai does not like mythology appologists, here's one; in a TV documentary ( honest I never watch TV ) about the great ocean conveyer (current), it was said that so many million years ago ( or, once upon a time) a huge load of water landed on earth from outer space almost doubling the water that was already there. Va!

The Dasamula of Vipin Bihari Goswami sounds interesting. Would that be the same as Bhaktivinoda's Dasamula?

By the way, I am not a follower of Gadadhara prana das although I esteem him as a great one, we did not get on. So I am not a member of 'genuine' line, but know most of the arguments.

[Nitaidas]

Sept 2, 2009 10:51:25 GMT -6 fiorafemere said:

Sciense is a reliable source of knowledge to a certain degree after which becomes a fairy tale like religious teachings. What CV is, path of knowledge or bhakti? Does the path of knowledge continues as the path of bhakti when the goal is achieved?
I do not see reconciliation point between Bhagavatam's descriptions and a sceintific proof we have at hand.
I have a question: What is the purpose of CV, to be placed into historical and scientific context or to lead aspiring/eager souls to expressions of love?

I don't see science as reliable only up to a certain point. The difference between science and religious teachings is that science is self-correcting. Religion never corrects itself on its own. If it does it does so reluctantly and only under great pressure from forces like science or the great "enlightenment" of the 17th-18th centuries.

Good question. Obviously CV's goal is to lead aspirants to prema, but would it not be more effective at that if it fit more comfortably into our present and future historical and scientific contexts? On the other hand, most of the gurus and sadhakas that I have hung around with rarely mention anything historical or scientific. Their focus is generally on encouraging the sadhana of Nama japa and kirtana. The history and the science of it all is definitely less important, if not even superfluous.

Perhaps my concern for science is just a way of avoiding real intense practice. As distraction, as it were. Still, I feel a need to know and I assume others do too. Maybe I am wrong.

Of course, bhakti is also a kind of knowing. As Baladeva says bhakti is a kind of intimate knowledge, the kind of knowledge a wife might have of her husband. In that sense it is a kind of knowledge that differs the more objective external knowledge of science.

[Nitaidas]

Sept 2, 2009 11:48:54 GMT -6 madanmohandas said:

Greetings. Welcome to merry England Nitai mahasoy. What coconuts? I understood it as a golden egg. The descent of Ganga as described in Valmiki's Ramayana is fantastic. He describes how the flood desended from the sky so vividly one might well believe it. I know Nitai does not like mythology appologists, here's one; in a TV documentary ( honest I never watch TV ) about the great ocean conveyer (current), it was said that so many million years ago ( or, once upon a time) a huge load of water landed on earth from outer space almost doubling the water that was already there. Va!

The Dasamula of Vipin Bihari Goswami sounds interesting. Would that be the same as Bhaktivinoda's Dasamula?

By the way, I am not a follower of Gadadhara prana das although I esteem him as a great one, we did not get on. So I am not a member of 'genuine' line, but know most of the arguments.

Thanks, madanmohanji. It is great to be here. And thanks for that mythological apologetic. That is interesting. I had not heard of that before. I am reading the most recent Scientific American issue on origins. The state of the best scientific knowledge we currently have on the origin of the universe, the origin of life, the origin of the human mind, etc. It is fascinating. Somehow that bit about water was not mentioned, though.

The book I am searching for called the Dasamula is the work of Bipinbihari Goswami and was the source of the shorter work by his disciple Bhaktivinoda. Bipinbihari's book is supposed to be huge, thousands of verses long, primarily in Bengali with numerous stanzas from Sanskrit embedded. I found two other works by BBG at the British Library: Madhura-milana in which Krsna dresses up in drag to get near to Radhika and another called the Harinamamrta-sindhu which did not seem to have much to do with Harinama at least as far as I recall. Somewhere I have a transcription of it.

I am also looking for the works of Krsnakamal Goswami, his yatras on Krsna lila.

Anyway, it should be an enjoyable, but busy stay.

We will make you an honorary member of the community if you want.

[zvs]

I cannot stress how interested/curious I am to read the findings of your quest for Sane Vaishnavism.

[Ekantin]

Nice to hear from you Nitai. Interesting that you are in London now. I've been away on a holiday myself, but am back in England now. Perhaps we can meet sometime. Hearing about your latest research is always a treat.

Like zvs I also have an enduring curiosity to hear more about your perspective on 'Sane Vaisnavism', as I'd love to see the completion of that pdf essay on your website about the subject. Also curious to hear more about Radical Empricism. Somehow I don't think the Wikipedia article on it was very satisfying, although I have a passing familiarity with the work of William James. Re your point about placing CV in a firm historical and scientific context, Richard Dawkins has gone even further with his latest book ('The Greatest Show on Earth') where he has outlined the evidence for evolution. I've been reading some early reviews which are quite positive and it looks like the book will be another 'hit'. The book is directed towards creationists, so I suspect much can be learned about evolution that will help to understand the arguments and how the CV outlook can be modernised as a result.

Anyway, will look forward to hearing more from you soon.

[Nitaidas]

Sept 4, 2009 8:35:27 GMT -6 Ekantin said:

Nice to hear from you Nitai. Interesting that you are in London now. I've been away on a holiday myself, but am back in England now. Perhaps we can meet sometime. Hearing about your latest research is always a treat.

Like zvs I also have an enduring curiosity to hear more about your perspective on 'Sane Vaisnavism', as I'd love to see the completion of that pdf essay on your website about the subject. Also curious to hear more about Radical Empricism. Somehow I don't think the Wikipedia article on it was very satisfying, although I have a passing familiarity with the work of William James. Re your point about placing CV in a firm historical and scientific context, Richard Dawkins has gone even further with his latest book ('The Greatest Show on Earth') where he has outlined the evidence for evolution. I've been reading some early reviews which are quite positive and it looks like the book will be another 'hit'. The book is directed towards creationists, so I suspect much can be learned about evolution that will help to understand the arguments and how the CV outlook can be modernised as a result.

Anyway, will look forward to hearing more from you soon.

Greetings Ekantin. Good to hear from you. Sure. It would be grand to get together with you. Are you here in London? Yes, I would like to get back to that essay, make is less Martin Luther King-like and complete the other parts of it. Now I am not sure things like the Kali-yuga are so important to as to occupy such an important place in the essay. It does play an interesting role in CV and perhaps it is worth discussing that side of it, Kali-yuga as a kind of motivator for members of the tradition. Also there seems to be a nexus between Radical Empiricism and Panentheism that came to my attention last semester as I was working on the introduction to my translation of one of Sri Kanupriya Goswami's shorter works. There is a lot of background reading yet to do on that. So I don't think I am ready to present a complete characterization of Sane Vaisnavism yet, but I am getting closer. I have lots of Sri Jiva to read too. The Tattva-sandarbha and its Sarva-samvadini have occupied me for years. Any Sane Vaisnavism that neglects him would be a misguided venture.

I noticed Dawkins' new book the other day when I visited Waterstone's. They are offering it at half price, 10 pounds instead of twenty. I am still working my way through the God Delusion. Was in stitches through most of Chapter 3. Some thought-provoking ideas about the relationship of love to religion in chapter 5: religion as a kind of misfiring of love. CV might have much to offer such a line of thought. I look forward getting his new book on evolution. Have you read any of Daniel Dennett? I am also reading his book on the evolution of free will.

I look forward to discussing some of these things with you and some of the others here.