Some Stray Thoughts

[Deva]

Very likely Subala. Because what happened and happens in IGM is not an isolated phonomenon but human nature. This is why I think that Nitai's community should count on having problems. Altought of course we wish him all success. Indeed, any such endeavor is already a victory.

[Nitaidas]

Jun 5, 2009 6:24:46 GMT -6 @Deva said:

Very likely Subala. Because what happened and happens in IGM is not an isolated phonomenon but human nature. This is why I think that Nitai's community should count on having problems. Altought of course we wish him all success. Indeed, any such endeavor is already a victory.

Thanks for your good wishes. It is true that such rivalries are part of human nature. Naturally, there will be clashing egos and disagreements and maybe even opposition from outside forces. We are hoping that submersion in the divine name will minimize that. That is why the only really solid rule is that everyone must chant 1-2 lakhs of Nama a day. I remember from the period in my life when I was with Baba and attempting to chant 3 lakhs how powerful an effect that had on me. It is not easy. The mind keeps wanting to wander, but persistence really pays off in that form of sadhana. Some extraordinary things were starting to happen to me and inside me. So hopefully the human-all-too-human sides of our natures will be thus diminished.

[Vaishnavaseminarigana]

Jun 5, 2009 2:15:18 GMT -6 subala said:

Considering the points mentioned in many of the above posts, I think everyone would agree the video (link below) raises many concerns about the preaching conducted by IGM "devotees".

matchlessgifts.org.uk/galleryfriday.html

As you see, Iskcon and Neo-Iskcon are now having Harinama wars on the streets of London.

I wonder if we'll ever get to see the traditional CVs engage in such nectarine activities?

Isn't it funny that the dude who stirred all this up is none other than my faithful stalker (one of them at least)... "Big Red Joe"Sylvestor.... a.k.a ..... Bhagavat!!!!

;D ;D ;D ;D



He's the big (literally) "sanyasi" in the vid. The one who's "looking around" for iskcon's kirtan party at the end.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....

The entertainment just keeps on comin'!

My experience is that other vaishnava groups in India do not behave the same way. I say this because in all my years living there, I've not seen or heard anything of the sort. Yes, they have their siddhantic differences and questions of "authenticity" as well, but they don't behave in this manner. They are all too busy engaged in their own personal bhajan (or begging) to be bothered to stage a comedy drama like the one in the above vid.

Nope. That is solely the domain of western vaishnavas.

You see, in India, the vaishnava groups are not out to convert sadhaks from one group to the next, or one guru to the next.

Now, if what is referred to as "traditional gaudiya vaishnavism" starts getting a lot of western followers who have come from a 1970s neo-hindu American cult background, then yeah, I can see the possibility of something similar happening.

Thats why if Nitai and others are going to do "outreach" in the West, it would probably be better to start from scratch with people who have absolutely zero background in bhakti, and build them up, step by step.

I'm sure you're familiar with the example of the music student.

If people with a similar background to Bhagavat wanna "jump ship", if I were you Nitai, I would close shop (to them).

Experience has proven time and time... and time and time... again, that they are unable to deprogram themselves from the memes and samskaras of their 1970s cult experience. Nor are they willing to voluntarily check themselves into a deprogramming center or get therapy.

Meanwhile, there are people out here who have never heard the sacred name of our Swaminiji who are very open, positive people and are really eager to hear about PREM. And they are so appreciative of Hari Katha.

At least that has been my experience.

So, I don't know if you want to do any sort of "outreach", but if you do, there is a whole planet here of really nice, normal, psychologically balanced and healthy people who are ready to hear the mahima of Kishoriji.

JAI SRI RADHE!!!

[Nitaidas]

Thanks for the advice, Vaisnava Seminars. We will keep it in mind. We do not plan a big outreach program. The main focus of the ashrama or ashramas will be bhajanananda. There will be little kutirs scattered about in the forest where sadhakas can do bhajan all day. Of course, every one will get together in the evenings for kirtana and path, but I doubt that there will be much in the way of nagara-sankirtana. Hopefully, there won't be any nagaras nearby.

My gurubhai is very suspicious of ex-IGMers. He barely tolerates me. So I don't think we will have much trouble. But one can never tell. One or two might just slip through. Surely, the holy name can reform them.

[Justin]

I understand what Tongi is talking about and and agree to some extent. But personally I have serious concernes about calling a whole class of people 'psychologically imbalanced, disfunctional, mentally incapable', and such things. Such criticism is not exactly accurate, what to speak of charitable. But of even more serious concern is to consider any class of people neglectable as far as being included in a grand plan for spreading the holy name. It does NOT sound like the essence of Mahaprabhu a-t a-l-l.

It could be said that Toongi herself should check in to some deprograming clinic to get rid of that complex of 'knowing all about Indians and the post 70's western bhakti scene'.

Not that its being said. But it could. Be. Said...

[Sadhananda]

Toongi, if by "stalking" you are talking about those posts here weeks ago, that wasn't Bhagavat. And you where not being stalked, by the way. Just quesitoned.

I think its important that events and facts are understood as accuraltely as possible. Especially by people who later put themselves in the position of explaining them.

[Vaishnava Seminarigana]

Jun 5, 2009 14:05:17 GMT -6 @Sadhananda said:

Toongi, if by "stalking" you are talking about those posts here weeks ago, that wasn't Bhagavat. And you where not being stalked, by the way. Just quesitoned.

I think its important that events and facts are understood as accuraltely as possible. Especially by people who later put themselves in the position of explaining them.

No, "Sadhan-ananda-ji", I am not exclusively referring to posts at this website.

By law "stalking" requires more than just 1 or 2 internet posts.

Even though you say, "I think its important that events and facts are understood as accuraltely as possible", I am sorry to disappoint you that I am not at (legal) liberty to give you all the information regarding my personal/private life or the invasion thereof.

So you will have to suffer not knowing all of the "events and facts" that have transpired.

Suffice it to say, it is not limited to the internet.

Now, allow me to lift spirits and spread a little love with;

samastad unmatta-bhramara-kula-jhankara-nikarair
lasat-padma-stomair api vihaga-ravair api param
sakhi-vrindaih sviyaih sarasi madhure prana-patina
kada drakshyamas te sasi-mukhi navam keli-nivaham

[Nitaidas]

Here is a morning song addressed to Sri Gaur and Gadadhara by Prabhu Jagadbandhu Sundara. I will post more inside the forum later. But if you like them, I can post them out here too.


Wake up Gor\=a, jewel of virtues,\\
the break of day has come.\\
With your dear one, how long\\
will you sleep there in one bed?\\
(How much more will you sleep? Pray tell.)\\
(Or, how much more will you pretend?)\\
(O Peak of Rasa!)\\
(1) The stars have all departed.\\
Wake up Gaura and Gad\=adhara!\\
The most pure moon in fatigue has descended.\\
(O the moon has now descended)\\
(after staying awake all night.)\\
Humorous, chaste Dawn just laughes with merriment.\\
(Those lilies there are weeping.) (Those lotuses there are expanding)\\
(That jewel of the day is becoming restless) (to see his beloved)\\
(2) On the branch sits the best of cuckoos\\
singing ``Jaya (Victory!)" without stopping.\\
Overwhelmed with rasa stutters\\
the Suradhun{\=\i}, softly softly.\\
(O you maddened by Prema)\\
(So that you will see),\\
Go now go with gathered bhaktas,\\
to the river's bank.\\
(They are standing at your door)\\
(They watch your path expectantly)\\
(Jagadbandhu is laughing sweetly)\\
(There is no ``chi chi" of bashfulness.)

[Suchandra]

Sweet! Love to see some more.

Who is Jagdbandhu Sundara?

[Nitaidas]

Here are some links to info about Jagadbandhu Sundara.

My own little encyclopedia entry on him

His tradition.

He was also important in the lives of Sri Ramdas Babaji and Premananda Bharati. He is said to have first suggested to Premananda that he go West with CV. There are some references to that in the appendices of Premananda's Sri Krsna (our edition, of course).

Here is another link at Sakhicaran Das ji's blog site.

I'll post another song tomorrow if I get a chance.

[Sakhicharan Das]

Jai Nitai!

Who is Jagadbandhu Sundar Prabhu?

The followers of Jagadbandhu Sundar Prabhu worship him as the combined form of Nitai and Gaurahari. Radha and Govinda combine as Gaurahari. Gaurahari then expands Himself as Nitaichand. Gaura and Nitai combine to form Bandhusundar Hari. His followers also consider his essence to be Hari Nam. He asks to be kept alive by constant recital of Hari Nam. Another way he is viewed is as the combination of Braja and Gaura lila.

brajalIlA gauralIlA mahAsanmilan haripuruSa jagadbandhu mahA uddhAraNa

He came to give Maha Uddharan, or universal emancipation. You can read some words about it from Mahanambrata Brahmachari:

¨To the query how can we realise that stage in the transcendental world of Love, Maha-uddharana is the reply. The word ´Maha´ means the Great, but I cannot translate the word ´Uddharana.´ You are familiar with terms like release, salvation, emancipation or ´Mukti´ as the Hindus call it, or ´Nirvana´ as the Buddhists call it. ´Uddharana´ is a term like them but it has a totally different connotation. All those terms – salvation and the like – are negative, while ´Uddharana´ is positive. ´Uddharana´ begins after salvation. We are said to have salvation when we free ourselves from bondage getting rid of limitations. ´Uddharana´ means something beyond that. ´Uddharana´ is positive realisation of ‘Hari’. This idea of positive and negative freedom can best be explained by showing the difference between work and play. Work is disciplined habit; play is free impulse. When we work in an office, which is like a big machine we do our parts mechanically. We are free of course, but negatively free. In work we are only partially personal, really impersonal. While we play and enjoy leisure in the association of friends we are fully personal.
Each member adapts himself to the thoughts and sentiments of the other. Each regards the other as a unique individual to whom he adjusts himself in a special way. The complete individuality of each is evolved. We are completely free – this is positive freedom the free play of the total personality. In an office or an impersonal group – for example, the Bell Telephone system, or a life insurance company, there is no such recognition of individuality, nor is individuality evoked. Each may respond to some act on the part of the other, just as one would respond to some physical object or mechanical signal. But in play, in the family circle or among friends, we spontaneously bring into operation the full personality of each. There exists an easy interplay of sentiments.
Salvation or Emancipation is to get a job in God’s office – to work in harmony with the world-order. But ´Uddharana´ is more than that. It is the enjoyment of God in His family Circle. Who constitute this family of God? Each unit of being – each unit of consciousness. Herein lies the significance of ´Maha.´ We need a circle, we need an association of friends. We depend upon playmates for the fullest realisation of one another’s individulity. So long as one friend is absent, the enjoyment is not complete. A single man remaining in bondage cannot be tolerated by a true lover of freedom. So long as there is one soul left outside, there will be no ´Maha-uddharana.´… Pray for all, take all home and make the family circle complete and truly enjoyable. Suns, moons and stars are workers in God’s office; we are players in God’s family.¨

To see the famous image of him when he was nineteen years of age, click here.

If you wish to read the chapter about him from The Saints of Bengal by OBL Kapoor, click here.

I am a follower of Dada Mosai (Radharaman Charan Das Dev) and we do not worship him in that way. He was the guru and dearmost associate of my param gurudeva, Sripad Ramdas Babaji in his youth. When Ramdas Babaji Maharaj left this world he called out the names of Bandhusundar and Radharaman Charan Dev. We consider Bandhusundar as our guru. Personally speaking, I do occasionally relish the bhav of worshipping him as Bandhu Hari, though as I said this is not the mood of our lineage.

[Deleted]

Yep, the bhakti movements of India were never meant for Americans or Europeans any more than they were meant for the Chinese or the Africans or the Kiwis of New Zealand. You want a Western bhakti tradition, mon? You got to grow that yourself, like growing a fine crop of sweet cannabis plants. You got to start with some fertile soil and some good fertilizer and some good water and some good sunlight. Then, and only then, can you get a robust and lively crop. If you want to use seeds from India, then you can do that. You don't have to do that. But you can do that.

Why is the Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormon) the fastest growing sect in America today? Because they are making all these new recruits? Not likely, mon. They are having lots of offspring. They are breeding at a very fast rate. They don't believe in contraception and they want to take over the world. They want to see every man, woman and child become a Mormon some day. They think the heavens are going to part any day now and Mormon and Jesus are going to snatch up all the Mormons and destroy all the non-Mormons. That's the mentality, mon. That's the home grown American bhakti movement that is going strong, if you want to call it a bhakti movement.

You want to create something that will have mass appeal? Put on your thinking caps, mon! You might be able to pull that one off, but if not, at least you have your bhajan and your cottages (kutirs) and hopefully some fine weed to relax with at the end of the day. Watch out for those Mormons, though. They like the weed too and just might see fit to confiscate yours.

[Deleted]

O - and I almost forgot. Power to the Peeps!

[Surya]

Oh that Jagadbandhu. He is of course famous. If I am not mistaken, one of the issues IGM have with this line is that Jagadbandhu Prabhu does not have a formal connection with any of the lines back to Mahaprabhu - a self-proclaimed incarnation. This no-line objection - its kind of ironic, in a roundabout way...

[Hemala]

Hemp is very powerful and should be legalized.