Post by Vaishnava Seminars on Apr 6, 2009 11:31:26 GMT -6
Maurice, I offered a seminar here, that's it. Nowhere did I state that anyone was better than anybody, including myself.
Are you asserting that people who have public speaking skills and apply them are somehow positioning themselves as better than other people? Then I guess you would assume that any vaishnava speaking Hari katha has positioned her/himself above others?
The workshop is interactive. I'm not up there telling people how to behave.
Your assumptions about me or my motivations are just that -- assumptions. Such types of assumptions and their concomitant negativity are definite iskcon memes that I've dealt with before.
This seminar is not, as you say, needed years ago but not now. It was inspired due to recent experiences. Recent means within the past 1 month.
I came, I offered. If it's not for you, it's not for you. No need to proceed to assume the worst about an individual you don't know and then attempt to insult her.
That is soooooooooooooooooooooooooo typical iskcon emo meme, dude.
The Indian gaudiya vaishnavas have their issues to be sure, but this type of morbid negativity (with it's lack of a sense of humor) and always trying to bring others down is not one of them.
Seriously, take a few whiffs of aromatherapy oil or something.
These are not assumtpions, I am not alone in this impression. The primadonna syndronme has been associated with your behavior before. But the issue is not even that. Being nice to others is fine, but it's also a fact that everybody has some flaw of character or behavior. Where is the point in denying our own when its brought up? How smart is it denying indefinitely the existence of those traits in us which prevent us from delivering the optimal in ourselves. Isn't precisely the limitations of Braktivedanta Swami you guys are talking about? But your own is not up for questioning. Humm. And you expect to have some thing new and restorative to offer?
Post by Vaishnava Seminars on Apr 6, 2009 12:50:56 GMT -6
My own character flaws are up for questioning, but not from people I don't know.
In fact, I was just reading about that somewhere the other day.
There's a name for when people assume the right to correct someone when there is no relationship base. Something about expecting to influence another person when there is no field of influence to begin with. Hmmm.... I should have written that down.
Anyway, it all comes down to sambandha. First one must establish a field of influence (relationship) and then proceed to influence, not the other way around.
Post by Vaishnava Seminars on Apr 6, 2009 13:47:34 GMT -6
You bit my bait! I knew you were going to say that, but I didn't address it, coz I wanted you to bite.
No. The seminar was requested by people who are experiencing the above described issues and it's interactive, with me as a facilitator only, not a teacher. I don't have answers, only questions, to which there are no right or wrong answers.
The questions are;
1. Is it true?
2. Can you absolutely know that it's true?
3. How do you react, what happens, when you believe that thought?
4. Who would you be without the thought?
These questions are applicable to any situation in life, including; "so-and-so is offensive because s/he doesn't talk about my guru or react in the way I want her/him to when I talk about my guru."
Hence the use of the 4 questions in the course of any interactive seminar I would give.
These questions allow participants to find their own answers, therefore, there is no right or wrong answer, but at some point participants realize that their answers are just that -- their own answers -- and not an objective reality for everyone, hence the 2nd question, "can you absolutely know for certain that it (what you think) is true?"
OK enough Zen for the day.
I came here just to inform about one little seminar to which people could respond to my email if interested and NOT respond if not, it has turned into a back and forth banter with someone who claims to know me but whom appearantly I don't know. Hmm... deja vous.
I suspect that you are the same individual who tried this same ol' worn out game with me elsewhere, therefore, I am outta here.
These type of games are for people with alot of time on their hands and no pressing work, and being that my time is constricted, I have to bow out.
However, if you would ever care to "man up" and say who you are and how you know me before you try to influence me, you can go to my original post and email me.
I am not one for discussing personal issues on the www.
And in addition, if you are who I think you are, I hope that the weather is nice this springtime in UK, you are taking your meds, and you will enjoy this video-documentary (since I know you have a penchant for New World Order conspiracy theories);
Bilderberg, the Tri-lateral Commision, it's all there....
In the meantime, as your sister and old friend, I seek to remind you that, despite some glitches, the wider Vaishnava world is a happy, joyous and humor-filled one, if you ever care to again come out of your cave (council house).
Here's a flirtatious Sagittarian wink for you
And a sisterly kiss
And last but not least - has that Feng Shui ever worked in your favor?
Dear Vaishnavas of Various Communities and Guru-Paramparas;
Jai Hari, Guru, Vaishnavas!
As we are now well into the new millenium and are blessed with a plethora of Vaishnava sanga from various backgrounds around the globe, I have come up with a workshop that will empower those amongst us who find it challenging to live in a multi-guru universe.
Finding it difficult not to force your guru onto other people who themselves often have their own guru? Do you feel "offended" when others do not show as much enthusiasm for your personally chosen guru as you do? Is your "enthusiasm" (pushiness) creating conflict in your relationships with Vaishnavas?
(Or, like me, have you been at the receiving end of such pushiness and has it caused you to withdraw into a shell?)
Not to worry.
I have designed a system by which you can get at the root of the problem by examining the reasons why you feel it neccessary to act/react the way you do. Step by step your reasons will be dismantled and replaced with an appreciation for the new plethora of Vaishnava sanga available to aspirants in the West, while at the same time not comprimising your own.
I have also designed a program for those of us on the receiving end of such behaviour, in order to empower us to deal with the phenomena in a holistic way.
As more and more Vaishnava sub-cults make themselves known around the world, unless we learn how to deal with each other in ways that are in line with Vaishnava etiquette, and well, also in line with just plain ol' functional human relational behaviours, we will find ourselves immersed in anti-depressants rather than ananda.
Nobody wants that, do they?
I have also developed workshops which empower us to relate like nice, normal and functional human beings with people of other religious backgrounds outside of the Vaishnava fold.
My workshops are based upon years of experience with all of the above.
And of course the workshops themselves are not officially associated with any religious organization, though for Vaishanvas, the underlying theme is obviously bhakti.
Here's the best part - the workshops/seminars are FREE of cost. I just need transportation costs covered and some kitcheri (with a wedge or two of lemon) to keep me going.
For those interested write to me at bluecupid108 AT yahoo DOT com
Your's in the service of that lotus eyed Braj kishori....
EK PREM! ONE LOVE!
Jai Rasika-jana ki ---- Swamini Radhe!!!!
I appreciate your desire to share your vision and aid in the rasa between bhaktas, but the problem you mention, for most people who are afflicted with guru-itis of one variety or another, is not a psychological problem, therefore group therapy probably won't work for them.
To make this clearer we can look at a few types of guru-itis which is common to the devotee community
When there is antagonism between gurus that antagonism is often reflected in their followers. I'll give a few examples:
1. The antagonism between Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Matha and other followers of Sridhar Maharaj with the sanga of Narayana Maharaj. For example Narasingha Swami, mahant of Shri Narasingha Chaitanya Matha, considers himself and his organization to be followers of Sridhar Maharaj. He has written articles where he writes that Narayana Maharaj offended Sridhar Maharaj by calling him a "fish seller and coal seller" when Sridhar Maharaj spoke out against Narayan Maharaja holding Ratha Yatra in Nabadvip.
There is also the teaching of Sridhar Maharaj where he is critical of raga-marga, and so his followers criticize and even call Narayan Maharaj a sahajiya for speaking so much on rasa, bhava, etc. It's based upon Sridhar Maharaja's interpretation of something Bhaktisiddhanta once wrote:
matala hari-jana visaya (or kirtana) range pujala raga-patha gaurava-bhange
Sridhar Maharaj and his successor Govinda Maharaj and most of the followers of Sridhar Maharaj interpret that to mean that bhaktas shouldn't follow the raga-marga, otherwise you can become a sahajiya, this is how they translate and interpret that verse:
"The servants of Hari are engaged in lavish affairs, handling material wealth and engaging all manner of things in the Lord’s service. They worship the path of spontaneous devotion with gaurava-bhange[in a mood of awe and reverence] and to show that the raga-patha is above all [above our heads], they remain as servants, being a little distant and below, praying for that of a servant’s duty, not for that of a confidential nature — not to bring that highest divine love down here, but to hold that upon their heads."
Here is Govinda Maharaja explaining that verse:
"Question: I have always understood that the verse, matala harijana kirtana range, pujala raga-patha gaurava bhange, means that our higest ideal is raga-marga, and, keeping it above us, we worship it from afar.
Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj: The correct idea is that we must always think it to be above us, otherwise we shall go down to the sahajiya line."
I have to disagree with the idea that Bhaktisiddhanta was against the raga-marga. This is a translation of that verse from a native born Bengali with no agenda to support Narayana Maharaj:
"Speak about the Harijans (devotees of Hari), enjoy the kirtana. Worship the raga-patha (the path of raganuga bhakti), giving up all sense of pride."
So there is a lot of antagonism between the guru and sannyasi followers of Sridhar Maharaj towards Narayana Maharaj, there are other reasons as well (Narayana Maharaj saying he was the only successor of A.C. Bhaktivedanta), but those are the main ones. Since they teach their diksa and siksa followers that Narayana Maharaj is an offender and a sahajiya, what can you expect from the followers when they interact with each other?
2. ISKCON gurus versus the world. In ISKCON they teach that everyone outside of ISKCON is to some degree or another not as good as they are, or even bad. Prabhupada caused this by the various things he said over the years about how his godbrothers were no good, and even forbade his followers from their association. Of course since Prabhupada left, those godbrothers and people like Narayana Maharaj, cite various reasons why Prabhupada didn't mean them. Some of Prabhupada's followers accept those excuses. But the facts on the ground in ISKCON and for many of Prabhupada's followers, is that they don't, they believe that since Prabhupada condemned his godbrothers and the Gaudiya Matha in general, that they are superior to them.
3. Gurus like Tripurari Swami, Paramadvaiti Swami, Narasingha Swami, Siddhaswarupa, etc, have antagonism with ISKCON, Narayana Maharaj, and Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Matha. If they were siksa or diksa disciples of Sridhar Maharaj, then the leaders and therefore members of his organization look down on them for not accepting Govinda Maharaj as the sole acharya. They may also be antagonistic towards Narayana Maharaj, because while they didn't accept Govinda Maharaj as the sole acharya, they do accept Sridhar Maharaj as their siksa guru for theology, and therefore are critical of Narayana Maharaj (not sure about Tripurari). Of course ISKCON gurus teach that those gurus are bogus and should be avoided because Prabhupada wanted everyone to stay in ISKCON and avoid his godbrothers. The followers of all of those gurus take up the attitude of their gurus towards the other gurus.
4. ISKCON gurus and followers. There are so many gurus, that whatever friction there is between guru sangas is usually not known by those outside of those sangas. Not always though. For example Bhakti Vikas Swami was very critical of Bhakti Tirtha Swami for the UFO and new age stuff he would write about in his books. A bunch of gurus are very critical of Hrdayananda Swami for his outspoken support of teh gayz. And on and on...Maybe you are a disciple of Prabhupada and believe that none of the gurus in ISKCON are qualified, or maybe you are a disciple of an ISKCON guru who believes that Radhanath Swami (has a very large number of disciples and influence in ISKCON) was complicit in the murders at New Vrindaban, or maybe you are a disciple of Gour Govinda Swami and believe that your guru was mistreated by the rest of ISKCON's leaders. Or maybe your guru was shamed by the GBC for some reason or another and you hold a grudge against other gurus.
These problems cannot be fixed by group therapy because there are theological and or personal antagonisms between gurus and organizations, which then the followers of those gurus take up for themselves.
Really, I don't know why you even care to do what you propose. Most people are screwed up. Especially if they have gotten their social views from ISKCON, if so, they tend to be very egotistic about what they believe in. Plus, they look towards their gurus for guidance, not some outsider, or if they are Prabhupada's disciples than they are in their 50's and older, and will be too prideful or egotistic to take advice. Seriously, if people aren't mature enough not to be disrespectful of other people simply because of different gurus, then they sure as hell won't think they have a problem that needs to be fixed.
Post by Vaishnava Seminars on Apr 6, 2009 18:19:55 GMT -6
I hear and agree with you. I have no idea how anyone got from "matala hari-jana kirtana-range, pujala raga-patha gaurava-bhange" that one keeps raga marg at a distance.
But besides that, this seminar is meant for the people who requested it and who responded to it in a postive way once it was circulated. Therefore there are indeed people out there who see the need for it amongst themselves. Everyone else need not bother responding - it's not for them, unless they come to feel it is.
I agree with you that spending many years of one's life in or around a cult wrecks havoc on one's mental and emotional development. But people can, and sometimes do, change.
Ultimately it's neither here nor there for me as I am not a member of any religious organization/cult and I keep myself at a neutral but respectful distance from all of them. However, I do often engage in interpersonal relationships wherein previous cult experiences sometimes seep in and run the risk of affecting the said interpersonal relationship.
Regardless - I am more or less happy in any situation simply because I don't take too much too seriously and I know how to keep myself busy so I don't require alot of stimulation from outside - either from individuals or the cults they may belong to.
There is so much beauty, bhakti and goodness in the world. No need to trace upon the negative.
And there certainly is no reason to keep on nursing inter-cult grudges from the last century, the last millenium even!
By asking ourselves the above mentioned 4 questions, we soon come to realize that whatever it is we are agonizing over is, like, so trivial.
Everybody in a circle, holding hands and singing "kumbaya".
Well Shiva das count yourself among the "screwd up" as you attempt to "unveil" the deceptions of the International Society For Krishna Consciousness by letting hundreds of your readers believe that you are a real woman. In the privacy of your home, do you dress up as one too? Just wondering...