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Post by Vaishnava Seminars on Apr 2, 2009 11:31:46 GMT -6
Nitai, when I was talking about that meme, I was referring to the entire Vaishnava community at large; old, new, traditional, non-trad, renounced, married, all of it.
Gaudiya Vaishnavism, although being a Devi centered religion (at least the rupanuga streak of it), is by and large male dominated, with few exceptions. Go figure.
That's the worst meme of all.
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 2, 2009 12:17:32 GMT -6
You are misusing the concept meme, then. Memes are discrete units of imitation just as genes are discrete units of genetic information. Just as a body requires hundreds or thousands of genes to be built and maintained, so a complex phenomenon like the Caitanya tradition is composed of hundreds of thousands of memes which when imitated prolongs the existence of the tradition. The whole thing can't be a single meme. When one joins it one begins to incorporate the various memes into one's behavior and way of thinking. Memes within the entire corpus of CV form several discrete systems and subsystems. Some are better reproducers than others and so are longer lasting. Others become mutated and transformed or are lost altogether. In this way the tradition is communicated from generation to generation. The driving force is imitation, thus the term meme from the Greek mimeme, as its creator Richard Dawkins points out. Anyway, one can alter the memetic composure of a complex system of memes.
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Post by Vaishnava Seminars on Apr 2, 2009 12:46:40 GMT -6
I'm not using the word meme to refer to GV as a whole, but I could see how you might have gathered as much due to this sentence;
Nitai, when I was talking about that meme, I was referring to the entire Vaishnava community at large; old, new, traditional, non-trad, renounced, married, all of it.
The "that meme" written above refers to that gender bias meme of the Gaudiya Vaishnava community at large, and most, if not all world religions.
Regarding the male domination of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, it is a meme, and one that has been reproduced across several shores and even in lands that have had strong feminist movements.
It seems that out of all the memes, this one appears to be amongst the strongest, if not THE strongest.
How unfortunate is that?
But, this is a topic for another seminar...
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 2, 2009 13:40:59 GMT -6
I see. You mean to say that that meme is found in all the meme pools related to World Religions inclusive of all the various meme pools of Caitanya Vaisnavism. Well, I agree with you there. Just like with genes, the meme that is most successful at reproducing itself is the one that dominates. One has to wonder why the male-domination meme is so good at reproducing. One should be able to discover some of the reasons.
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Post by Vaishnava Seminar on Apr 2, 2009 15:05:02 GMT -6
Well one would have to look at the affects/effects of the same and determine if one finds them "good" or not. It's highly subjective.
I mean, we would expect it in a Deva centered religion, but not in a Devi centered one like GV. But given that GV was born at a time when India was even more obsessed with testicles than it is now, it makes sense. But it does not make sense for other cultures to adopt the same testicle obsession meme, especially cultures that have made much more progress than India in that regard.
Anyway, the good thing is that this gives me alot of material to work with. Another seminar in the making...
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Post by Maurice on Apr 2, 2009 16:46:57 GMT -6
Nitai you have been isolated too long. Things have changed a lot since your time in Iskcon. IGM people nowadays are not like you and your generation back when you were indoctrinated and suffered those memes. (Just see misses Workshop here, she is all up beat and modern and open minded.  ) If I say that it is a breach of etiquette to expect to instruct the instructor, this opinion is mine alone, its a widely informed position I take in the matter, it has nothing (or very little) to do with IGM. In fact, if you can't accept the fact that individuals may have and do have the capacity of thinking for themselves, and sometimes thinking brilliantly at that, then you are just as prone to create vices as those two institutions you so eagerly blame everything on. Lots of people by now are probably more experienced than you if contact with different groups and current trends are taken into cosideration. Have you gone out and mixed with devotees lately? Do you know how little anyone really cares about organizations; how what really counts is to be affiliated with money trends (as Harold has pointed out earlier)? This seminar has come a bit too late, in my opinion. A few years ago there might have been a place for it. But currently, who wants to hear another celebrity wannabe tell us what we already know? You guys need to get out the woods a bit more. |
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Post by Vaishnava Seminars on Apr 2, 2009 17:41:07 GMT -6
And just look at this junior Maurice trying to instruct his seniors on getting out more!  I don't know what circles you are moving in Maurice, but the circles I move in, need a workshop like this, and I'm getting good feedback from them. In other words they are saying, "yeah, we need it." Now I'd like to know what makes you think that anyone I will give the workshop to is my "senior"? Do you know me? And again I ask, what method do you use for determining who is "senior" and "junior"? What is the benchmark for such? |
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subala
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Post by subala on Apr 3, 2009 8:41:15 GMT -6
I would like you elaborate on this. What memes did you disgard? How did you struggle with and resolve these issues? There are several memes circulating in IGM that are not only in contradiction to the mainstream Vaisnava tradition, but that are down right harmful to one's spiritual life. One of the chief memes of this type is the one that contains the claim that IGM is the only genuine surviving lineage of the Caitanya Tradition. I picked this up from BV himself. What a surprise it was when I discovered that not only were there at least four lineages, healthy and full of life, but that the lineage IGM claims is non-existent. Half members of that lineage never even met each other and the other half have other gurus that are textually documented. So we go from "we are the only living tradition" to "we are not even connected to a living tradition." Now maybe it doesn't really matter. But, it seems to matter to the mainstream tradition which insists on proper initiation and undergoing a period of training or tutelage under a practicing Vaisnava. That meme was not so hard to overcome, once I got over the shock. There are other more subtle memes that one only comes to recognize gradually as false or harmful. Such memes can be embedded in the language used to describe the ultimate truth and the sacred realm. One classic example is Supreme Personality of Godhead. If you reflect on it carefully you will note some subtle implications, such as the implication that behind all personalities of god there is something called the godhead which being beyond personality must be impersonal. BV and his guru and guru bhais, though they appear to be militantly against the Mayavadins and impersonalists, were in fact promoting an even more subtle form of impersonalism. Another example can be found in using the name Srimati Radharani. That is a meme that was been communicated unfortunately to even some members of the mainstream tradition. What is wrong with it? It means Queen Radha, full of great fortune. Whole patina of aisvarya is introduced in this name that inhibits the simple madhurya with which we should be viewing and relating to Sri Radhika. This latter name I specially like. Yes, it has the Sri but that is countered by the "ika" ending which turns the name into Little Radha. It is a much more intimate and sweet way to relate to Radha than the fawning and overly awe-stricken other name. That former name too smacks of a kind of impersonalism. Anyway, these are perhaps small examples. There are others that are of more consequence to one's spiritual development than these. If you are interested, I will mention those at another time. |
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subala
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Post by subala on Apr 3, 2009 8:42:44 GMT -6
I never absorbed this meme or it's mutation "Swamiji is the only way". That's all I'll say about this, because it's tedious.
IGM is a meme within CV. IGM has no reality and is almost an oxymoron.
BTW Nitai, I'm not here to start arguments. I'm here to learn about my broader Gaudiya family.
What are these four lineages that you mention?
I find your views on the phrase "Supreme Personality of Godhead" interesting. Do you really believe using this phrase makes one a closet impersonalist?
I never use the phrase "Supreme Personality of Godhead" and I don't know anyone who does. I haven't used "Srimati Radharani" in many years because it's aisvarya and not in keeping with Vraja bhavas. In fact, I cringe when I hear these terms, but can we really dismiss people who do use them? Does that render them lesser devotees?
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 4, 2009 9:34:47 GMT -6
I never absorbed this meme or it's mutation "Swamiji is the only way". That's all I'll say about this, because it's tedious. You haven't listened to any of Bhaktivedanta's lectures then. I've been in the audience when he said such things. Then, of course, I knew no better. Not only does he claim GM is the only living representative of the Caitanya Tradition, but that he is the only disciple of Bhaktisiddhanta who followed his orders and received his grace. It is a kind of way of marking your territory I guess. I agree with you. This business is tedious and also pernicious. You may not recognize it as such yet, but as you learn more about the Vaisnava world you may come to. We can avoid talking about it and in fact I would prefer it that way, but it is always the elephant in the room, at least for those of us who have had to try to deprogram ourselves. You mean IGM is a meme pool, not a meme. It is a meme pool filled with many discrete memes not all of which need be rejected. Some do however, if one really wants to experience authentic Caitanya Vaisnavism. What do you mean by oxymoron here? I am not sure you are using it correctly. I understand and appreciate that. I don't relish arguments either, but this is an issue of what constitutes that broader Gaudiya family. By the way, I prefer to stay away from that term because it fails to do justice to the fact that Caitanya Vaisnavism is a phenomenon that is larger than just the Gaudiya or Bengali world. There are South Indian members of the Catianya community who have been part of it almost since the beginning. The word Gaudiya is too ethno-centric a term to do justice to the tradition as a whole. There are really many more than four, but the four major living lineages are the Nityananda-paribara, the Advaita paribara, the Gadadhara paribara, and the Lokanatha/Narottama paribara. Yep. Why not just Supreme Person? Well good for you. It is like hearing someone you like described in an unflattering way. It is not pleasing to the ear. I attribute it to ignorance of the true nature of Sri Radhika. Does that make someone a lesser bhakta? I don't know. It might. |
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 4, 2009 16:41:37 GMT -6
Nitai you have been isolated too long. Things have changed a lot since your time in Iskcon. IGM people nowadays are not like you and your generation back when you were indoctrinated and suffered those memes. (Just see misses Workshop here, she is all up beat and modern and open minded. ) If I say that it is a breach of etiquette to expect to instruct the instructor, this opinion is mine alone, its a widely informed position I take in the matter, it has nothing (or very little) to do with IGM. In fact, if you can't accept the fact that individuals may have and do have the capacity of thinking for themselves, and sometimes thinking brilliantly at that, then you are just as prone to create vices as those two institutions you so eagerly blame everything on. Lots of people by now are probably more experienced than you if contact with different groups and current trends are taken into cosideration. Have you gone out and mixed with devotees lately? Do you know how little anyone really cares about organizations; how what really counts is to be affiliated with money trends (as Harold has pointed out earlier)? This seminar has come a bit too late, in my opinion. A few years ago there might have been a place for it. But currently, who wants to hear another celebrity wannabe tell us what we already know? You guys need to get out the woods a bit more. You're a fool if you think that memes don't affect you. Nobody thinks about everything they learn. Most people don't think about anything they learn. They see, they hear, they imitate. You may think that you are cleverer than most, but you are not. That much is clear from your comments. It may well be that IGM has changed in the years since I departed. What does not change? Is it better today? I seriously doubt it. Do I care? Sadly not. IGM means nothing to me any more. It was like a disease (malaria) that I suffered once, but have gotten over. I am glad to be over it. Returning to health has been a long slow process, but it has mostly occurred smoothly. Occasionally, I have relapse. An old meme pops to the surface, but those are becoming less and less frequent. Of course, I accept the fact that individuals can and do think for themselves. I do it all the time. But no one is entirely free. We are all conditioned by our pasts, by our experiences and understandings, and memes make up a large part of that. |
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Post by Maurice on Apr 4, 2009 21:51:02 GMT -6
It is not a matter of being cleverER (which I don't think I am anyway) but of intuition and just simple faith: I no longer allow any self proclaimed Holder of The Truth out there, be it IGM or Nitai das and his theories of memes, to bully and intimidate me by calling me stupid. What have you got to show for yourself? Just bitterness and insults, like those you criticize.
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Post by Vaishnava Seminars on Apr 5, 2009 20:29:18 GMT -6
I think Maurice's comments here are perhaps the best example of memes derived from time spent in or around iskcon.
Nitai, don't pay attention when he says you need to "get out more". You are not missing much, believe me. You are not missing much at all.
But you obviously already know that.
I'll be joining you in the woods sooner than later....
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subala
Junior Member
Posts: 67
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Post by subala on Apr 6, 2009 2:51:38 GMT -6
This is certainly food for thought, and I agree with you. Gaudiya leaves out the devotees from Orrisa too. I'd love to know more about the South Indian community. Oxymoron: a combination of contradictory or incongruous words (as cruel kindness); broadly: something (as a concept) that is made up of contradictory or incongruous elements Since IGM means Iskcon-Gaudiya Math which are two antagonistic organisations we could say lumping them together as IGM is a concept made up of incongruous (not harmonious)elements. Lumping them together implies sameness which in my experience is far from being true. Maybe I'm using the word oxymoron very loosely. I will have to disagree with you on this point, and you can disagree with me. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with Supreme Person. What about God with the capital G? Are we at risk of falling into semantics? For the general populous the term God might suffice, after all English is for a western audience, and things can get lost in translation. There's a lot to be said for learning Sanskrit and Bengali.  Yeah...that's very true. Ditto. Maurice, could we have less agression please? Vaishnava Seminars has concerns about my-guru-is-better-than-your-guru-vadis and she is entitled to air them. You may disagree with her seminar idea, but you don't have to be rude by calling her "another celebrity wannabe". It's ungentlemanly. |
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Post by Maurice on Apr 6, 2009 7:03:30 GMT -6
Apologies to Miss workshop then. But what is the advantage of hearing that its wrong to think my-guru-is-better-than-your-guru from someone who clearly is thinking, "I-am-better-than-my-guru-and-your-guru-and-everyone-I-meet-for-that-matter?
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) If I say that it is a breach of etiquette to expect to instruct the instructor, this opinion is mine alone, its a widely informed position I take in the matter, it has nothing (or very little) to do with IGM. In fact, if you can't accept the fact that individuals may have and do have the capacity of thinking for themselves, and sometimes thinking brilliantly at that, then you are just as prone to create vices as those two institutions you so eagerly blame everything on. Lots of people by now are probably more experienced than you if contact with different groups and current trends are taken into cosideration. Have you gone out and mixed with devotees lately? Do you know how little anyone really cares about organizations; how what really counts is to be affiliated with money trends (as Harold has pointed out earlier)? 
