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Post by Vaishnava Seminars on Mar 22, 2009 21:50:08 GMT -6
Dear Vaishnavas of Various Communities and Guru-Paramparas;
Pranams.
Jai Hari, Guru, Vaishnavas!
As we are now well into the new millenium and are blessed with a plethora of Vaishnava sanga from various backgrounds around the globe, I have come up with a workshop that will empower those amongst us who find it challenging to live in a multi-guru universe.
Finding it difficult not to force your guru onto other people who themselves often have their own guru? Do you feel "offended" when others do not show as much enthusiasm for your personally chosen guru as you do? Is your "enthusiasm" (pushiness) creating conflict in your relationships with Vaishnavas?
(Or, like me, have you been at the receiving end of such pushiness and has it caused you to withdraw into a shell?)
Not to worry.
I have designed a system by which you can get at the root of the problem by examining the reasons why you feel it neccessary to act/react the way you do. Step by step your reasons will be dismantled and replaced with an appreciation for the new plethora of Vaishnava sanga available to aspirants in the West, while at the same time not comprimising your own.
I have also designed a program for those of us on the receiving end of such behaviour, in order to empower us to deal with the phenomena in a holistic way.
As more and more Vaishnava sub-cults make themselves known around the world, unless we learn how to deal with each other in ways that are in line with Vaishnava etiquette, and well, also in line with just plain ol' functional human relational behaviours, we will find ourselves immersed in anti-depressants rather than ananda.
Nobody wants that, do they?
Thought not!
I have also developed workshops which empower us to relate like nice, normal and functional human beings with people of other religious backgrounds outside of the Vaishnava fold.
My workshops are based upon years of experience with all of the above.
And of course the workshops themselves are not officially associated with any religious organization, though for Vaishanvas, the underlying theme is obviously bhakti.
Here's the best part - the workshops/seminars are FREE of cost. I just need transportation costs covered and some kitcheri (with a wedge or two of lemon) to keep me going.
For those interested write to me at bluecupid108 AT yahoo DOT com
Your's in the service of that lotus eyed Braj kishori....
EK PREM! ONE LOVE!
Jai Rasika-jana ki ---- Swamini Radhe!!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2009 4:50:28 GMT -6
You may not get many takers. I think most are not all that concerned with whom they perceive to be rival sects. It is just another law of the jungle that particularly pertains to primates: Looking out for number one and the trickle down theory of economics.
Good luck with that though.
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Post by Nitaidas on Mar 26, 2009 10:16:51 GMT -6
Sounds delightful. Are you Madhumati dasi? We would love to blend together with our brothers and sisters. The problem is in recognizing them. One cannot brush the problem of authenticity under the carpet. IGM's claim to Vaisnavatva still remains dubious at best. They are it seems to me a different tradition, only superficially like the Caitanya Vaisnava tradition. How do you handle this problem?
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Post by Vaishnava Seminars on Mar 29, 2009 9:14:14 GMT -6
Radhe! Radhe!
No, I am not Madhumati dasi. Though her website is wonderful!
If you are not a member of Iskcon or Gaudiya Math and your dealings with Vaishnavas from either one are almost nil to void, then there would be no reason to go out of your way to "deal with that issue", or to deal with Vaishnavas from those groups, but when you happen to come across them, greetings of "radhe radhe" and some heartfelt well wishes would be appropriate.
Basically I deal with Vaishnavas from various groups the same way I deal with people who belong to other religions. In a nice, courteous way that focuses more on what we have in common than on the differences and controversies.
I think the differences and controversies have been well aired for years, decades, even centuries now. There is a movement amongst spiritualists to put that aside and just focus on the common ground, for the sake of the planet and humanity at large.
There's some saying, "put a bunch of esoterics (mystics) in a room together and they will find something to agree on. Put a bunch of exoterics in a room together and they will find everything to disagree on"... or something like that. You get the idea.
So I try to be an esoteric no matter who I happen to meet with, but that doesn't mean I neccessarily go out of my way to meet with this one or that.
Just that when I DO meet with them, I try to make sure the meeting is nice, normal, sane and happy by focusing on what we have in common - love and God (which is the same thing).
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Post by Nitaidas on Mar 29, 2009 14:18:25 GMT -6
Radhe! Radhe! No, I am not Madhumati dasi. Though her website is wonderful! If you are not a member of Iskcon or Gaudiya Math and your dealings with Vaishnavas from either one are almost nil to void, then there would be no reason to go out of your way to "deal with that issue", or to deal with Vaishnavas from those groups, but when you happen to come across them, greetings of "radhe radhe" and some heartfelt well wishes would be appropriate. Basically I deal with Vaishnavas from various groups the same way I deal with people who belong to other religions. In a nice, courteous way that focuses more on what we have in common than on the differences and controversies. I think the differences and controversies have been well aired for years, decades, even centuries now. There is a movement amongst spiritualists to put that aside and just focus on the common ground, for the sake of the planet and humanity at large. There's some saying, "put a bunch of esoterics (mystics) in a room together and they will find something to agree on. Put a bunch of exoterics in a room together and they will find everything to disagree on"... or something like that. You get the idea. So I try to be an esoteric no matter who I happen to meet with, but that doesn't mean I neccessarily go out of my way to meet with this one or that. Just that when I DO meet with them, I try to make sure the meeting is nice, normal, sane and happy by focusing on what we have in common - love and God (which is the same thing). Thanks for the clarification. Meeting others from other traditions or from traditions that appear to be the same as one's own is not the problem, as I see it. There is no reason not to be friendly and cordial and kind-hearted on such occasions. That is just common human decency. And such occasions are primarily social. Sanga, however, is another matter. One should limit sanga to one's own kind and if sanga with people of one's own kind does not exist, it is better not to have sanga with anyone. If one is serious about cultivating the religious insights of a particular path, one has to hang out with advanced practitioners of that path. When one does so, one will pick up the memes that will help one to achieve success on that path. Those memes in turn have been received and passed on from other advanced practitioners of that path. Memes are replicable units of imitation in the form of ideas and practices and imitation is what is at the root of religious cultivation as envisioned in the Indic traditions, and maybe also in other traditions as well. IGM and mainstream Caitanya Vaisnavism operate within different and incompatible pools of memes. It is extremely problematic to try to mix them. It has been one of my struggles over the years to try to identify and discard all of the memes I picked up when I was in IGM. Those memes contradict, combat, and try to weaken the memes I acquired after I left IGM and lived among the mainstream Vaisnavas. It has not been a easy task, but if I place greater trust in the mainstream path that is what has to be done. |
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Post by Vaishnava Seminars on Mar 29, 2009 21:40:54 GMT -6
You're preaching to the choir here. In other words, no need.
This seminar is designed basically for people who live in or travel to India frequently where there are alot of Vaishnavas from various backgrounds moving about and it is common to be in cross-sanga situations, whether on the train, on parikrama, whatever.
It's basically a seminar designed to teach etiquette. It's not about intimate sanga.
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Post by Maurice on Mar 30, 2009 7:30:35 GMT -6
Etiquette? Isn't it a breach of etiquette to expect to teach one's seniors?
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Post by Vaishnava Seminars on Mar 30, 2009 10:43:52 GMT -6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Etiquette? Isn't it a breach of etiquette to expect to teach one's seniors?
Who's doing that?
But to answer the hypothetical question: No.
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Post by Maurice on Mar 30, 2009 20:27:20 GMT -6
Well I am definitely not taking your "workshop/seminar" because the answer is actually "yes". Physician cure thyself.  |
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Post by Vaishnava Seminars on Mar 30, 2009 21:38:39 GMT -6
By which method can you ascertain if someone is what you call "senior" to someone else?
And being that I do not know anyone on this website in person, how could I determine such?
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subala
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Post by subala on Apr 2, 2009 3:06:28 GMT -6
I would like you elaborate on this. What memes did you disgard? How did you struggle with and resolve these issues?
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 2, 2009 9:07:55 GMT -6
Etiquette? Isn't it a breach of etiquette to expect to teach one's seniors? Why shouldn't one teach one's elders? Just because someone is an elder does not mean that he or she knows everything. If you are talking about elder in the sense of guru, that holds true as well. A guru may know a great deal about the sacred, but may be a complete idiot in other more practical matters. Etiquette may be one of those matters. If one's guru is really illuminated she or he will welcome such instruction, recognizing that the samasti guru is larger than any individual and can speak through anyone or any aspect of the world. This attitude about not being able to teach the guru is a fine example of one of those memes that IGM promotes and that has to be flushed away once one joins the real Vaisnava world. |
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 2, 2009 9:35:34 GMT -6
I would like you elaborate on this. What memes did you disgard? How did you struggle with and resolve these issues? There are several memes circulating in IGM that are not only in contradiction to the mainstream Vaisnava tradition, but that are down right harmful to one's spiritual life. One of the chief memes of this type is the one that contains the claim that IGM is the only genuine surviving lineage of the Caitanya Tradition. I picked this up from BV himself. What a surprise it was when I discovered that not only were there at least four lineages, healthy and full of life, but that the lineage IGM claims is non-existent. Half members of that lineage never even met each other and the other half have other gurus that are textually documented. So we go from "we are the only living tradition" to "we are not even connected to a living tradition." Now maybe it doesn't really matter. But, it seems to matter to the mainstream tradition which insists on proper initiation and undergoing a period of training or tutelage under a practicing Vaisnava. That meme was not so hard to overcome, once I got over the shock. There are other more subtle memes that one only comes to recognize gradually as false or harmful. Such memes can be embedded in the language used to describe the ultimate truth and the sacred realm. One classic example is Supreme Personality of Godhead. If you reflect on it carefully you will note some subtle implications, such as the implication that behind all personalities of god there is something called the godhead which being beyond personality must be impersonal. BV and his guru and guru bhais, though they appear to be militantly against the Mayavadins and impersonalists, were in fact promoting an even more subtle form of impersonalism. Another example can be found in using the name Srimati Radharani. That is a meme that was been communicated unfortunately to even some members of the mainstream tradition. What is wrong with it? It means Queen Radha, full of great fortune. Whole patina of aisvarya is introduced in this name that inhibits the simple madhurya with which we should be viewing and relating to Sri Radhika. This latter name I specially like. Yes, it has the Sri but that is countered by the "ika" ending which turns the name into Little Radha. It is a much more intimate and sweet way to relate to Radha than the fawning and overly awe-stricken other name. That former name too smacks of a kind of impersonalism. Anyway, these are perhaps small examples. There are others that are of more consequence to one's spiritual development than these. If you are interested, I will mention those at another time. |
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Post by Vaishnava Seminars on Apr 2, 2009 10:15:58 GMT -6
This attitude about not being able to teach the guru is a fine example of one of those memes that IGM promotes and that has to be flushed away once one joins the real Vaisnava world.
Thankyou for that, Nitai. I was just now going to write that the meme Maurice Reeve's cultivates in this regard, is one of the memes that I have personally had to do away with.
Although, upon further reflection, looking over my experiences in India amongst various Vaishnava groups, that meme is not really there. I mean, it is and it isn't.
The broadest and most commonly found example I can give is the fact that through Braj, Navadwip and Puri, I have constantly and continuously seen young men giving poth/pravachan to elderly Vaishnava women, many times 3 or 4 times their age, as well as dixit many decades before them, and sometimes even guru-bheins to their param-gurus!
Yet, it is never questioned "why is this child-man daring to instruct these very "senior" Vaishnava women?
I have never seen an example of where this is not taking place, so Maurice Reeve's remark in this regard might simply reflect his inexperience in Vaishnava circles, and thus it was said in naivity/innocence.
As far as internal indicators of who is "senior", that would depend on being antaryami and having vision as to how much bhakti any given sadhaka has in his/her heart.
I suppose that everyone who gives class/poth/prachan has at least one other person in the audience who might have more bhakti than them and the only one who would know for sure is Antaryami (the one with a capital A).
Hence the conclusion is that, no, being "senior" to other people, whether by external or internal indicators, is not a pre-requisite for giving class/poth/pravachan.
In general what I have seen is that those Vaishnavas who are predisposed for public speaking will be the ones to give poth/pravachan, provided they have testicles instead of ovaries.
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 2, 2009 11:25:48 GMT -6
Yes, well that is another meme: that men are better than women. Unfortunately, with few exceptions that meme circulates among the mainstream Vaisnavas as well. It is a meme embedded in a system of memes related to the claim that Caitanya Vaisnavism is most at home among renunciants. Householders are often also excluded because of their contact with the vaginas of their wives. The other rasika Vaisnava traditions are not so adamant about renunciation.
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