Jon
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Post by Jon on Apr 7, 2022 8:44:08 GMT -6
As for this question you raise here, I make another statement that I may regret someday, but don't at present. My main impulse for starting this study/translation is that over the years I have become profoundly suspicious of the way Mahaprabhu is represented in some of the biographies, especially in Krsnadas Kaviraja's "Final Word." There is a sectarianism and a "we better than you" attitude in the CC that I find suspicious and distasteful, especially with respect to those wicked "mayavadis." I doubt that KdK ever read a word of Sankara and since I am currently reading the Tattva-sandarbha with Sri Jiva's autocommentary where he clearly has read Sankara and in many cases quotes him (and Vacaspati Misra) approvingly, I doubt KdK even read that work. In addition, much recent fine scholarship on Sankara has demonstrated convincingly that 90% of the books attributed to Sankara were not by him and that those discredited books are the books in which mayavada is primarily presented. This leads me to further distrust in the polemic of KdK in the Cc. The question for me then is what did Sri Caitanya really think if the picture of him in the Cc is a fabrication? My suspicion is that he was closer in viewpoint to Sridhara than we previously thought. His virulent anti-mayavadin stances in the Cc are bs. So I am looking at the early biographies of Mahaprabhu and fringe presentations of his philosophy as in Srinathacakravartin's comm. to try to get a better sense of what Mahaprabhu really may have thought (more like Sri Krsna Prem, perhaps?). My guess is that advaita and dvaita were blended in him much as they are in Sridhara, though I must say that Srinatha's interpretations rather temper that, to a degree. I will give a recent example in another post. Anyway, it is much too early in the project to draw any conclusions. I am learning a great deal and enjoy the hunt for the authentic Sri Caitanya. I will periodically provide updates as I discover or realize things. I can't claim too much familiarity with Sridhara Swami's commentaries/translations (only that I know Bhaktivedanta Swami "accepted" them and/or based some of his on Sridhara's, whatever that means), but it's always been obvious to that Cc as a hagiography is equal parts the author's own philosophy and worldview as much as it's subjects. I haven't read the Caitanya-bhagavata -- I gather it's perhaps less on the nose, but maybe not. Either way, it's such important work you're doing, and yet crazy that it's being left to a single Western scholar and a handful of assistants to do the research and find the essence. I suppose to ask ISKCON to do so would be rather like asking the Catholic church to fund an investigation into the historical Jesus, but it's still an incredible situation. I am desperate to try and learn the basics of Bengali, or Sanskrit (or even Hindi -- at least an Indian language) myself, but I'm battling a serious health condition at the moment (I can tell you more privately), and the little on my book, along with my day job in PR, is really all I can manage right now, let alone knowing where to start, what is a good resource and what is a waste of time, etc. I'd be delighted to, if there is interest. For those who have some familiarity with the story, we've just moved up to Almora, though there's no ashram yet, and Nixon is yet to become Sri Krishna Prem! I was a journalist for over a decade, but this is my first book, so I'm not sure if I'm doing it "right" -- I'm mostly muddling through and trying to get the basics down, and then I can go back and finesse at a later date. At the moment I'm largely working from a manuscript prepared by his disciple and successor, Sri Madhava Ashish. Absolutely. Please let me know how I can help. I've been interested in CV (although initially the IGM flavour, like all of us, I'd imagine) since I was about 18, in the mid 2000s, so I know my way around a bit, though by no means an expert. |
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Post by avadhutadas on Apr 7, 2022 10:32:42 GMT -6
Jai Nitai Jonji! I thought I would comment on the CB and Cc quickly since you mentioned you hadn’t read the Cb. . The mood of these two books are quite different. You might already know all this but the Cc covers Mahaprabhus life after taking sanyas. A lot of the Cc is based on Swarup Damodars journal. He spent 24 years(I think that’s the right number) with Mahaprabhu in Jagannath Puri. According to some acaryas, Swarup Damodar is Lalita devi in Vraja Lila, perhaps Sri Radhas closest friend.
On the other hand, the Cb is based off of Murari Guptas journal. It focuses mostly on mahaprabhus pastimes before taking sanyas (with some post sanyas pastimes that Kdk expands on in the Cc). It was written by SRila Vrndavan das Thakur who is a disciple of Sriman Nityananda Prabhu. Murari Gupta is considered to be an incarnation of Hanuman and Garuda. The mood to Cb is much closer to dasya (servant) mood compared to the madhurya mood of Cc. The Cb spends a lot more time talking about Mahaprabhu as Sriman Naryana, focusing on worshiping the Lord with His opulences. The Cb also contains many pastimes of Nityananda Prabhu and establishes the basis of Nityananda tattva. I personally spend a lot more time listening to the Cb than the Cc. I love hearing about Nityananda Prabhus Lila. He is an Avadhuta, a transcendental madman. Also there is a great narration of Cb in YouTube. I find the dramatized narration of Cc on YouTube to be unlistenable due to the weird voice impressions the narrator makes.
Kdk glorifies Vrndavan das Thakurs Cb quite extensively in the Cc. The Cb ends rather abruptly and Vrndavan das Thakur doesn’t narrate many of the stories that he promises to in the beginning of the antya lila. It leaves some wondering if he didn’t complete the work or if parts of it are missing.
Unfortunately the only Cb books in print right now are written by BSST. There are some unfortunate conclusions in his commentary to that book. However I don’t think he actually did the translation. Perhaps BSST served a particular function that Krishna found useful at the time but I don’t like to share his commentaries due to some of the things he says about Nityananda vamsa. BSST did manage to establish a temple in Radhakund and one of his disciples was a siddha so he must have some blessing from Srimati Radharani so I am not as scathing in my view of him as maybe Nitaidasji is.
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Post by meeno8 on Apr 7, 2022 16:02:01 GMT -6
I was just getting caught up on this thread. I noticed my name came up with respect to rust and oil. It is interesting considering my sister gave us a bunch of her lawn ornament sculptures last summer when she sold her farm and closed her business. They are just iron (not stainless steel) and are already rusted, but they need to be treated with linseed oil periodically so that they do not rust away completely. I guess I am 'gugubhai' (Nitai's great typo on another thread) and the tin man from Wizard of Oz. At least not the scarecrow who sings, "If I only had a brain." On some days I feel like both between osteoarthritis in the knees and a brain that is not the same as it was 30 years ago, when foreign languages were far more accessible. Eventually I may have enough money in the bank to actually retire, retire. Then I could focus on writing, but I am not inclined to translate texts, rather to use good translations as sources. My BA is in philosophy, so I am more inclined to write on that subject vis a vis CV, rather than theology or history.
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Jon
Junior Member
Posts: 51
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Post by Jon on Apr 8, 2022 4:31:00 GMT -6
Jai Nitai Jonji! I thought I would comment on the CB and Cc quickly since you mentioned you hadn’t read the Cb. . The mood of these two books are quite different. You might already know all this but the Cc covers Mahaprabhus life after taking sanyas. A lot of the Cc is based on Swarup Damodars journal. He spent 24 years(I think that’s the right number) with Mahaprabhu in Jagannath Puri. According to some acaryas, Swarup Damodar is Lalita devi in Vraja Lila, perhaps Sri Radhas closest friend. On the other hand, the Cb is based off of Murari Guptas journal. It focuses mostly on mahaprabhus pastimes before taking sanyas (with some post sanyas pastimes that Kdk expands on in the Cc). It was written by SRila Vrndavan das Thakur who is a disciple of Sriman Nityananda Prabhu. Murari Gupta is considered to be an incarnation of Hanuman and Garuda. The mood to Cb is much closer to dasya (servant) mood compared to the madhurya mood of Cc. The Cb spends a lot more time talking about Mahaprabhu as Sriman Naryana, focusing on worshiping the Lord with His opulences. The Cb also contains many pastimes of Nityananda Prabhu and establishes the basis of Nityananda tattva. I personally spend a lot more time listening to the Cb than the Cc. I love hearing about Nityananda Prabhus Lila. He is an Avadhuta, a transcendental madman. Also there is a great narration of Cb in YouTube. I find the dramatized narration of Cc on YouTube to be unlistenable due to the weird voice impressions the narrator makes. Kdk glorifies Vrndavan das Thakurs Cb quite extensively in the Cc. The Cb ends rather abruptly and Vrndavan das Thakur doesn’t narrate many of the stories that he promises to in the beginning of the antya lila. It leaves some wondering if he didn’t complete the work or if parts of it are missing. Unfortunately the only Cb books in print right now are written by BSST. There are some unfortunate conclusions in his commentary to that book. However I don’t think he actually did the translation. Perhaps BSST served a particular function that Krishna found useful at the time but I don’t like to share his commentaries due to some of the things he says about Nityananda vamsa. BSST did manage to establish a temple in Radhakund and one of his disciples was a siddha so he must have some blessing from Srimati Radharani so I am not as scathing in my view of him as maybe Nitaidasji is. Thank you, Avadhuta-ji! I appreciate the explanations. I will maybe check out the videos you talk about on YouTube, too. I too am attracted to Nitai's avadhuta-like, rule-free mood of devotion -- though I wonder where it is today. It seems the Nityananda parivar now is very much your standard householder Goswami line. |
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Post by avadhutadas on Apr 8, 2022 6:04:44 GMT -6
It was Mahaprabhus wish for Nityananda to get married and have children. In this way there would be a family dynasty to propagate the teachings of Mahaprabhu throughout Bengal and India. I’m not sure what you mean by “standard Goswami”. Sounds like something BSST would say. Listening to the katha from not just Nityananda Parivar but some of the other goswamis in other Parivars it seems to me there is nothing standard or ordinary about them.
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Jon
Junior Member
Posts: 51
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Post by Jon on Apr 8, 2022 8:22:06 GMT -6
It was Mahaprabhus wish for Nityananda to get married and have children. In this way there would be a family dynasty to propagate the teachings of Mahaprabhu throughout Bengal and India. I’m not sure what you mean by “standard Goswami”. Sounds like something BSST would say. Listening to the katha from not just Nityananda Parivar but some of the other goswamis in other Parivars it seems to me there is nothing standard or ordinary about them. I didn't mean it negatively, and I'm sorry if it came across this way! I follow and like Prabhupada Premgopal and Nityagopal Goswamis and their family and admire their mood of devotion. I was talking more about the "mad for Krishna" avadhuta archetype, which I suppose is found mainly among the babajis now rather than the settled Goswami families, as a natural consequence of their respective roles in our tradition. Jai Nitai! |
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Jon
Junior Member
Posts: 51
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Post by Jon on Apr 8, 2022 8:23:09 GMT -6
Give me a householder guru over an artificially "renounced" IGM pseudo-sannyasi anyday.
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Post by meeno8 on Apr 8, 2022 8:30:06 GMT -6
As an avadhuta I see him as the exemplar of raganuga bhakti as opposed to vaidhi bhakti. I do not really think we are meant to imitate his behavior via becoming avadhutas ourselves at that same level.
Marriage, for example, may be that ancient tradition in India. However, it is fairly recent historically in the Western world, especially as an institution in the Church. Bigamy is now pretty much outlawed, where it was commonplace in Eastern and Western cultures. Mormons have their own way of circumventing the laws on the books, by not having more than one 'legal' wife. Monogamy is not actually intrinsic to any primate species, including our own. Mistresses differ from wives in name only, when it really comes down to it. One of my friends discovered he had a half brother after both his parents died, when he also discovered he is a descendent of a black slave on his father's side (a secret that his father kept quite well when mixing with high society in their yacht building business and racing - I was one of the 3 man crew for my friend and his older brother in some of those races in Saugatuck, Michigan back in the day when we were teenagers).
Anyways, it is my own understanding that gurus who give diksha must be householders according to tradition. Giving bekh (vesh) is a special ceremony in our tradition when one becomes a babaji (the equivalent of a sannyasin for us). The ashrams are basically a holdover from earlier eras, since varnashram dharma is not really significant for us as it is for those 'caste' Hindus. Which is more 'virtuous' in the end: Abandoning one's wife to go off to do bhajan somewhere, or remaining with one's lifetime companion according to the standard wedding vow 'til death do us part'? Think about that one, gentle reader.
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Post by meeno8 on Apr 8, 2022 11:04:54 GMT -6
Putting what is known as the pan-Indian 'bhakti movement' in context with respect to the bigger picture: That mystical tradition goes all the way back at least to the Alvars in South India in the 7th to 10th Centuries CE, and should include the Sufis, whom are an Islamic mystical tradition. We should not have some Bangla-centric view, and consider the whole mystical tradition that extends beyond the borders of West Bengal, Orissa and Braj Mandal in Mathura, U.P. The rise of the movement is akin to the Age of Reason and The Enlightenment in Europe. And the mystical tradition of freemasonry played a central role in that development.
The idea of 'family dynasties' was already there prior to CV, since the gotras are an ancient tradition, and every brahman today lays claim to being in one or another gotra.
Please try to jettison all of that excess baggage that IGM may have loaded up your brains with, which are in the end just a major hindrance. Grab those bags and toss them off the train, without giving them a second thought.
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Post by avadhutadas on Apr 9, 2022 16:40:10 GMT -6
It was Mahaprabhus wish for Nityananda to get married and have children. In this way there would be a family dynasty to propagate the teachings of Mahaprabhu throughout Bengal and India. I’m not sure what you mean by “standard Goswami”. Sounds like something BSST would say. Listening to the katha from not just Nityananda Parivar but some of the other goswamis in other Parivars it seems to me there is nothing standard or ordinary about them. I didn't mean it negatively, and I'm sorry if it came across this way! I follow and like Prabhupada Premgopal and Nityagopal Goswamis and their family and admire their mood of devotion. I was talking more about the "mad for Krishna" avadhuta archetype, which I suppose is found mainly among the babajis now rather than the settled Goswami families, as a natural consequence of their respective roles in our tradition. Jai Nitai! Jai Nitai! There are avadhutas in Vrndavan for sure. By their very nature they are not prone to having disciples or followers. As a householder with a new baby it has been a huge relief to take instruction from a householder guru. |
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Post by meeno8 on Apr 10, 2022 8:52:29 GMT -6
Avadhut:
I am not sure what you mean by 'many' episodes of Prabhu Nityananda in the CB. I went through all of them when doing research for my master's thesis on his life, and they were really few and far between. The edition I used for translation had a TOC that referenced all of those about him. Maybe that TOC was not thorough enough.
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Post by meeno8 on Apr 10, 2022 9:10:04 GMT -6
In fact, despite whatever is in CB, I came up short as far as finding enough source materials on his life. Hence, my having to come up with another topic for my thesis for my MA. Another story for another day.
Re: Avadhuts
Someone gave me a copy of The Bauls of Bengal, an album on vinyl of kirtans, back around 1982. They are wandering bards of the present day, and anyone who casts aspersions on them is sadly misled.
Re: Kirtan
The CV tradition sings kirtan mainly from the poetry of Narottam Das, as well as from the Gita-Govinda of Jayadev, and NOT from Bhaktivinode's song book, which is only used in IGM kirtans. The chant of the branch founded by Bado Baba, Nitai Gaur, Radhe Syam, Hare Krishna Hare Ram is simply about singing about the pancha tattva in kirtan, and using the maha mantra while doing japa.
Dr. Kapoor promoted gurus in the line of Bado Baba, and introduced Jagannath Das to one of them, and I was present for that. Jag had his heart sent on getting diksha from Krishna Charan Baba of 42 Kesi Ghat Ashram in Vrindavan, which he did, and I was present for that ceremony. It was there at that ashram we began our studies of astakaliya lila smaranam.
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Post by meeno8 on Apr 10, 2022 9:41:41 GMT -6
On vairagya in general:
It is a principle rooted in detachment and an integral part of sadhana in Buddhist monasteries. On the other hand, it can be pursued out of a type of hubris or a general misconception of the principle. My perspective is that one can achieve vairagya while in trance during deep meditation, without needing to make it a lifestyle choice that cannot be maintained. Take a look at all those Westerners that tried it and failed in the end, and among them some that had diksha in authentic CV lineages. In my own life, I thought it might be some attainable goal years ago, but I learned after spending time with our gurudev and the other babajis in Braj mandal that it is something indeed extremely rare for sadhakas, including myself. I spoke with Baba about my plans to return to University, and he just told me to keep up my bhajan as best as I could while pursuing academia. In no way, shape or form did he encourage me to try to be a vairagi artificially.
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Post by avadhutadas on Apr 10, 2022 10:29:13 GMT -6
Avadhut: I am not sure what you mean by 'many' episodes of Prabhu Nityananda in the CB. I went through all of them when doing research for my master's thesis on his life, and they were really few and far between. The edition I used for translation had a TOC that referenced all of those about him. Maybe that TOC was not thorough enough. Here are the CB chapters which speak specifically of Nityanandas pastimes 1.9 childhood pastimes and pilgrimage 2.4 Mahaprabhu and Nitai meet 2.5. Nitai’s Vyasa puja 2.11 Nitai retrieves Srivas paraphernalia from a crow. Drinks Malinis breast milk 2.12. Mahaprabhu begs Nitai’s kaupin from Him 2.13 Jaggai Madhai 2.22 (glorification of Nityanandas ability to remove aparadhas) 3.5 Nitai saves the dacoits 3.6 Mahaprabhu teaches Nitai tattva 3.7 Rice Prasad in Gadadhars garden. Also 2.15 is Madhais prayer to Nitai |
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Post by meeno8 on Apr 10, 2022 13:25:52 GMT -6
Thanks for that.
"Miracles will happen as we dream..."
- Crazy by Seal
How is it that someone goes through their entire life with perfectly straight hair, and then after thousands of haircuts, all of a sudden it turns wavy after another haircut? Well, that is exactly what happened in my case last fall. I had another haircut today (still wavy), and I asked my hair dresser if she had ever seen anything like that before. She said no, and showed me in the mirror how it was still wavy in the back.
As mystics in a mystical tradition, we need to ponder the mysteries of the universe, as all mystical orders have done since the masons who built the pyramids and the mystery schools of ancient Egypt.
For me personally, this is a sign from the divine couple (and perhaps the principal sakhis and manjaris as well), and perhaps Sri Gurudev, about the outward effects of sadhana after decades. I view the the term 'miracle' as Judeo-Christian, considering one of the criteria for sainthood in the Church has always been producing at least 3 miracles. For us, why should anything be miraculous at all? Do the rest of you accept this story as factual without before and after photos (and bear in mind that with Photoshop anything can be faked anyways)? Nitai has know me long enough, so he would just need to see the after photo, which I will send him via my cell phone.
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