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Post by Nitaidas on Feb 18, 2012 15:04:56 GMT -6
Well now that we are on the topic of brahmachari, I want to ask something, without needing a new thread for it. Recently, Prabhavisnu maharaj from iskcon, "fell down," with a Thai girlfriend. My question, does it even matter? Why is his qualification as a teacher dependent on his witholding of semen? Of course if he is making goo goo eyes at the Thai girl all the time, then his eye is not on sastra, but that will show in time if he people think his personal life is affecting his spiritual life. Can't he spiritualize what he does in his private life? And the same question I have is for the TGV. When Bhaktisiddhanta complained about some babas at Radhakund for having sexual partners, still my question is, why does it matter? Does it affect their bhajan for sure? Can they be doing something that like what Jagat is talking about? Is there a problem? In other words, why should an acharya either be celibate or lawfully married? Why can't there be something in between where the teacher expresses himself sexually? Is there some transgression in any way here? Well, this is the perennial question. I personally do not think that someone is any wiser or more qualified to speak about R and K if he or she is celibate. There is a strong bias in CV and IGM for the opposite view. One should remember that 99% of the followers of Mahaprahbu were householders. Though he took Sannyasa brahmarya (he never became a full sannyasi), he never recommend that anyone else do so. So most did not. Those who wanted to be close to him did, because in order to live close to a sannyasi in training one either had to be a sannyasi or another sannyasi in training. Advaita was a householder. Nityananda was a householder. There is really no connection between being a renunciate and being more holy. Yet that has become the implication of both CV and IGM. So in general I would say no. Let that fallen swami become a householder and still teach. But if he wants to pretend that he is still a sannyasi, then he should give up his girlfriend. Sannyasa was never an important part of CV as I have suggested and indeed it should not be now. If someone really wants to lead a life of renunciation focused entirely on bhajan then let him become a babaji. There should be an exactly comparable renunciant status for women, maybe mataji. Babajis and (matajis) are casteless and ashramaless. They have no place in the hierarchy and receive none of the respect sannyasis do. That is the way it should be. Now, there is the principle I just mentioned: bhakti is the mother of knowledge and vairagya. So this implies that someone advanced in bhakti will also develop knowledge and vairagya. Vairagya would mean not being dragged about by one's genitals. So can we conclude that said swami had little or no bhakti?
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kalki
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Post by kalki on Feb 18, 2012 15:17:11 GMT -6
Vairagya would mean not being dragged about by one's genitals. So can we conclude that said swami had little or no bhakti? perhaps he had some bhakti, but he was not steady enough? it seems celibate renunciation has a benefit in many ways by increasing brain power due to semen not being emitted externally and also some benefit is their for controlling the senses which helps to control mental urges as well. but I don't think it is all an all as superior, but just beneficial if one can do it. even a married person can regulate is sexual practices. it would seem that vairagya is not so much absolute that either you have it or you don't. it could come and go according to one's own mental conviction. sometimes more renounced and sometimes less.
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Post by Nitaidas on Feb 18, 2012 16:10:04 GMT -6
Vairagya would mean not being dragged about by one's genitals. So can we conclude that said swami had little or no bhakti? perhaps he had some bhakti, but he was not steady enough? it seems celibate renunciation has a benefit in many ways by increasing brain power due to semen not being emitted externally and also some benefit is their for controlling the senses which helps to control mental urges as well. but I don't think it is all an all as superior, but just beneficial if one can do it. even a married person can regulate is sexual practices. it would seem that vairagya is not so much absolute that either you have it or you don't. it could come and go according to one's own mental conviction. sometimes more renounced and sometimes less. Do you really believe that idea about semen? I think it is just some baseless foolishness without any real supporting evidence. Just a piece of folk superstition or something like that. One really should not believe everything one hears. Or, the simpler explanation is that said swami didn't have any real bhakti. Bhakti is not a very common thing. Why ignore the elephant in the room?
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Post by vkaul1 on Feb 18, 2012 17:28:03 GMT -6
Actually the way CC described Sri Chaitanya dealing with Chota Haridas or mentioning how he would not even touch the doll in a shape of a woman does reinforce the sense of dualism, don't you think?
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kalki
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Post by kalki on Feb 18, 2012 17:59:57 GMT -6
Do you really believe that idea about semen? I think it is just some baseless foolishness without any real supporting evidence. Just a piece of folk superstition or something like that. One really should not believe everything one hears. well I thought the idea that the non-emission of semen and the drawing it up throught the spine and it nourishing the brain was perfectly normal or acceptable knowledge. I thought that every yogic tradition understood it and it was scientific as well. Am I wrong? Personally, I always did feel that celibacy created some kind of conservation of brain power. Somehow, I see the difference in own self by comparing my bramachari days with nowadays.
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Post by Nitaidas on Feb 18, 2012 19:25:48 GMT -6
Actually the way CC described Sri Chaitanya dealing with Chota Haridas or mentioning how he would not even touch the doll in a shape of a woman does reinforce the sense of dualism, don't you think? I am not saying that there is no dualism in the literature. Certainly, there is plenty of it. I am just saying that it is a way of describing things that we can very well dispense with today. Today we know that dualism is a misapprehension of the way things are. To talk about things in dualistic ways is certainly easier than to try to describe them nondualistically. And it had a place in the society of the those days. But dualism is unsupportable today. It is largely a fiction, is it not? There may be temporary distinctions that rise and abide for a while. But like waves in the ocean they always return to the ocean.
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Post by Nitaidas on Feb 18, 2012 19:36:12 GMT -6
Do you really believe that idea about semen? I think it is just some baseless foolishness without any real supporting evidence. Just a piece of folk superstition or something like that. One really should not believe everything one hears. well I thought the idea that the non-emission of semen and the drawing it up throught the spine and it nourishing the brain was perfectly normal or acceptable knowledge. I thought that every yogic tradition understood it and it was scientific as well. No. I don't believe there is any evidence that this is true. Yes, indeed, it is a common belief in yoga, an ideology, one might say. But do you really think that there is some channel running from your testicles to the brain through which semen can flow? All of those nadis and cakras are imaginary. It is like the fossils that are identified as Salagram Silas. They are aids in meditation and smarana, but have no real truth or existence outside of that. I think that having an active and healthy sex life is far better for your health and for your longevity than abstinence. I think there have been studies that have shown that being sexually active is a good way of preventing various cancers. So, like having some wine with dinner, some regular sex can contribute to your health. The problem is always overindulgence. Moderation is the key.
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kalki
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Post by kalki on Feb 18, 2012 23:36:39 GMT -6
But do you really think that there is some channel running from your testicles to the brain through which semen can flow? All of those nadis and cakras are imaginary. It is like the fossils that are identified as Salagram Silas. They are aids in meditation and smarana, but have no real truth or existence outside of that. Well, I am not a master yogi, and so I cannot speak from experience, but I just know that other yogis, also in the Buddhist tradition, speak about the nadis, and shusumna central challenge in a very reliable way. So the idea of energy running up the spine is their and for the Sikhs too. Many paintings in many different traditions have depicted this and it is all essentail to their meditations and cultivation of kundalini and so forth. What about Tummo? The heat that yogis in Tibet generate at the base of the shusumna channel to keep the body warm and even to the degree of drying wet cloth from the body because of the heat? How did they do it if the channels did not exist? I guess I would have to research and speak to someone with a better argument than I before I debate it with you more than this. Thanks for the challenge. If the nadis did not exist, then I am going to be really really surprised.
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Post by Nitaidas on Feb 20, 2012 9:32:33 GMT -6
But do you really think that there is some channel running from your testicles to the brain through which semen can flow? All of those nadis and cakras are imaginary. It is like the fossils that are identified as Salagram Silas. They are aids in meditation and smarana, but have no real truth or existence outside of that. Well, I am not a master yogi, and so I cannot speak from experience, but I just know that other yogis, also in the Buddhist tradition, speak about the nadis, and shusumna central challenge in a very reliable way. So the idea of energy running up the spine is their and for the Sikhs too. Many paintings in many different traditions have depicted this and it is all essentail to their meditations and cultivation of kundalini and so forth. What about Tummo? The heat that yogis in Tibet generate at the base of the shusumna channel to keep the body warm and even to the degree of drying wet cloth from the body because of the heat? How did they do it if the channels did not exist? I guess I would have to research and speak to someone with a better argument than I before I debate it with you more than this. Thanks for the challenge. If the nadis did not exist, then I am going to be really really surprised. Well, master yogi or not, I think it is all fiction. Perhaps it is a useful fiction (or it was until we had better information on our inner workings) in that it marks a path to some kind of inner experience. But the fact that master yogis have some inner experience does not make that inner experience real or true. Starve yourself and torture yourself and you will start the see things and hear things too. Those fictions are much like the fictions found in the Bhagavata. They are useful prompts for meditation and since they are conducive to remembering Krsna they must be svarupa-sakti. I think Tummo is a fiction too. If there were some real scientific evidence for it I would accept it. But it would have a real explanation. Some sort of natural function of the body to protect it in the extreme cold. It is just the opposite for me. If they exist I will really be surprised.
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Post by vkaul1 on Feb 20, 2012 10:42:49 GMT -6
Well, I am not a master yogi, and so I cannot speak from experience, but I just know that other yogis, also in the Buddhist tradition, speak about the nadis, and shusumna central challenge in a very reliable way. So the idea of energy running up the spine is their and for the Sikhs too. Many paintings in many different traditions have depicted this and it is all essentail to their meditations and cultivation of kundalini and so forth. What about Tummo? The heat that yogis in Tibet generate at the base of the shusumna channel to keep the body warm and even to the degree of drying wet cloth from the body because of the heat? How did they do it if the channels did not exist? I guess I would have to research and speak to someone with a better argument than I before I debate it with you more than this. Thanks for the challenge. If the nadis did not exist, then I am going to be really really surprised. Well, master yogi or not, I think it is all fiction. Perhaps it is a useful fiction (or it was until we had better information on our inner workings) in that it marks a path to some kind of inner experience. But the fact that master yogis have some inner experience does not make that inner experience real or true. Starve yourself and torture yourself and you will start the see things and hear things too. Those fictions are much like the fictions found in the Bhagavata. They are useful prompts for meditation and since they are conducive to remembering Krsna they must be svarupa-sakti. I think Tummo is a fiction too. If there were some real scientific evidence for it I would accept it. But it would have a real explanation. Some sort of natural function of the body to protect it in the extreme cold. It is just the opposite for me. If they exist I will really be surprised. Yes I also feel the same way. I don't know if you can have different visions using some supramundane senses after starving yourself or with some techniques. However, there may some truth to the Krsna legend, since archaeology is still a neglected discipline in India. Even important discoveries like the Indus Valley Civilization were made by Westerners. Before Schliemann, many people thought Troy was a myth. ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Schliemann ) This is one place where I think absence of evidence does not imply evidence of absence, simply because there hasn't been enough archaeology done in India to say evidence is absent. So I don't think Krishna can be written off as a myth, although of course, the stories are very likely to have been elaborated and embellished, much like the legendary accounts of Troy in Homer's epics. PS- I am no Maharaj, Nitai ji. I don't know much. I believe in one thing quoted by Carl Jung," Mistakes are after all the foundations of truth, if a man does not know what a thing is, it is an increase in knowledge of what it is not." So I am trying to learn from my mistakes and you and others help me with that correction. That is all.
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Post by Nitaidas on Feb 20, 2012 11:16:18 GMT -6
Well, master yogi or not, I think it is all fiction. Perhaps it is a useful fiction (or it was until we had better information on our inner workings) in that it marks a path to some kind of inner experience. But the fact that master yogis have some inner experience does not make that inner experience real or true. Starve yourself and torture yourself and you will start the see things and hear things too. Those fictions are much like the fictions found in the Bhagavata. They are useful prompts for meditation and since they are conducive to remembering Krsna they must be svarupa-sakti. I think Tummo is a fiction too. If there were some real scientific evidence for it I would accept it. But it would have a real explanation. Some sort of natural function of the body to protect it in the extreme cold. It is just the opposite for me. If they exist I will really be surprised. Yes I also feel the same way. I don't know if you can have different visions using some supramundane senses after starving yourself or with some techniques. However, there may some truth to the Krsna legend, since archaeology is still a neglected discipline in India. Even important discoveries like the Indus Valley Civilization were made by Westerners. Before Schliemann, many people thought Troy was a myth. ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Schliemann ) This is one place where I think absence of evidence does not imply evidence of absence, simply because there hasn't been enough archaeology done in India to say evidence is absent. So I don't think Krishna can be written off as a myth, although of course, the stories are very likely to have been elaborated and embellished, much like the legendary accounts of Troy in Homer's epics. PS- I am no Maharaj, Nitai ji. I don't know much. I believe in one thing quoted by Carl Jung," Mistakes are after all the foundations of truth, if a man does not know what a thing is, it is an increase in knowledge of what it is not." So I am trying to learn from my mistakes and you and others help me with that correction. That is all. Calling something a myth does not write it off. It means at least in the circles who study them that a story has a special meaning for a community of people. We are not myth-busters. The fact that there was a Troy or an ancient Mathura does not prove anything about the myths. The Puranas are not histories but mythologies, which means that they contain stories that in some way define a people. Mythologies might be based on actual places or people who really lived. There probably was Krsna Vasudeva. One is mentioned in the Upanisads, but that does not mean there ever was a Krsna dancing with gopis on this planet or anywhere for that matter. Still, that story has special deep meaning that transcends time and space. What a disappointment it would be to find out that it actually happened! I know, I was being playful. Aren't we all maharajas in our own ways, Maharaja?
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Post by vkaul1 on Feb 20, 2012 11:33:44 GMT -6
Yes, in one sense, even Chaitanya lila constructed by his biographers is a myth. He did not stay in the womb for 15 months or everyone was not chanting for his arrival when they were in Ganga etc etc.
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kalki
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Post by kalki on Feb 20, 2012 11:54:03 GMT -6
I think Tummo is a fiction too. If there were some real scientific evidence for it I would accept it. But it would have a real explanation. Some sort of natural function of the body to protect it in the extreme cold. Here is the best link I could find off hand for scientific research...
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kalki
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Post by kalki on Feb 20, 2012 12:23:44 GMT -6
the video is filled with examples of people who sat in tanks of ice cubes or walked on ice for longer than humans should.
scientists had concluded that they had control of their body through tummo to generate enough heat to survive the cold without getting hypothermia or complete frostbite.
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Post by Nitaidas on Feb 22, 2012 9:38:38 GMT -6
the video is filled with examples of people who sat in tanks of ice cubes or walked on ice for longer than humans should. scientists had concluded that they had control of their body through tummo to generate enough heat to survive the cold without getting hypothermia or complete frostbite. Well, does any of this prove anything about nadis and cakras? It merely proves that some people are able to control their body temperatures. That fellow at the end even got frost-bite. So they are not even able to control it very well. Being able to control one's body temperature and proving the existence of nadis and cakras are not the same. As I said before, the nadis and cakras are imaginary meditation supports just like the lila of Krsna. There are bound to be results but not because there are nadis or cakras. The real mechanisms for the experience of tummo or bhakti-rasa are as yet not known.
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