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Post by Nitaidas on Aug 28, 2010 17:17:45 GMT -6
Mani Babu continues:
Just as on the stage of bhajana-kriya the forms of bhakti such hearing, remembering and so forth appear from the holy name which is the source or whole, so too does sankirtana of the holy name appear. Just as from a seed, which is the cause of a tree, branches, sub-branches, leaves, fruit, etc, which are the effects of the seed, appear, so too do countless more seeds appear. In the SikSASTaka, one begins from the stage of bhajana-kriya. Therefore, at the beginning it is said ceto-darpaNa-mArjanam ... param vijayate zrIkRSNasaGkIrtanam. Here the unlimited holy names as effects are being referred to. This sankIrtana of Krsna appearing in the form of sadhana-bhakti has begun to cleanse the mirror of the mind. Even though by ceto-darpaNa-mArjana the fourth stage, the cessation of harmful things (anartha-nivRtti), is referred to here, that process has not been completed. It extends from the cessation of harmful things through steadiness, taste, and up to the stage of attachment (Asakti). Up to the stage of attachment is sadhana-bhakti. As Mukunda Goswami says in his commentary on the Brs (1.3.1): harAvAsaktyavadhikA sAdhana-bhaktiH, "Sadhana-bhakti extends up to attachment to Hari" Therefore, when the practitioner reaches the final stage of sadhana-bhakti, the stage of attachment, the practitioner's "blowing out of the forest fire of material existence (bhavamahAdAvAgni-nirVapana)" occurs. But, what does this blowing out of the forest fire of material existence mean? That we have to consider. Sadhana-bhakti was described in verse 1.1.13 of the Brs as kleza-ghnI, "the destroyer of afflections." The meaning of this destroying of afflictions is given in the following verse as "the destruction of sins, the seeds of sin, and sin's root, ignorance" (1.1.14). Therefore, in agreement with the previous verse, on the stage of attachment, in the "blowing out of the forest fire of material existence," sin, the seeds of sin, and sin's root ignorance are destroyed.
If, however, one doesn't see the appropriateness of the order of the conclusions of the Brs, one will not understand the order of the stages in the ceto-darpaNa verse. Because, it is agreed in sastra that in the case of someone who has no impurities and who is without offense the uttering of one single holy name results in prema which is represented in this verse by the "wife of knowledge," (vidyA-vadhU). But in this verse, after the "blowing out" one reaches by Krsna's name the stage of feeling or rati instead, represented by the "lotus of the highest good" (zreyah-kairava).
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Post by gerard on Aug 29, 2010 9:21:45 GMT -6
So Mani Baba also has sadhu-sangha before faith. That's interesting.
Mani Babuji says in one reply: "in this age there is no longer Vidhi-bhakti" and in the other "up to the stage of attachment is sadhana-bhakti", so I would like to ask what the difference is between vidhi-bhakti and sadhana-bhakti.
If you had stayed with my feelings I had agreed, but you make it more general and even metaphysical so I have to react. But as Klostermaier can say it better than I can, I like him to say it:
There is among the systematizations of Indian religions one major school of thought for which the universe consists of feelings - feelings elicited by and directed towards a transcendent person. I am referring, of course, to Caitanya's Gaudiya Vaisnavism and its systematization in the works of his immediate followers, among whom Rupa Goswamin and Jiva Goswamin stand out. Their's is a universe of feelings - feelings providing not only the criteria of reality but also its structures.
What determines our decision to reduce feelings to either mind or body rather than see mind and body as the instruments of feelings? Why should one imagine God in terms of a mathematician or a judge, rather than in terms of an artist or a lover?
Possibly the bias of our culture stems from a perception that feelings presuppose a material sensorium and an object felt, and that feelings, being by nature chaotic, require an ordering mind to make sense. Abstract order - mathematical and philosophical - is of the essence of our present civilization. The physical sciences have dissolved matter into a network of mathematical formulae. Much of contemporary philosophy considers logic in its most formalized sense the essence of mind.
Doubts with regard to the prevalent paradigm are rising. The basic concepts of physics - space, time, matter and number - begin to be understood as metaphors for a reality which eludes the method of contemporary physics. The necessarily axiomatic character of all formal logic again has convinced some of us that it presupposes a reality which is not necessarily governed by the same logic. So, we may be more favourably disposed today to consider a universe of feelings than many of our predecessors. It is neither chaotic nor without its own logic, and it avoids a number of problems in theodicee which have proven insoluble in the context of a mind-body universe.
While it possesses its peculiarities as compared to mainstream Indian religions, the Caitanyite conception is solidly embedded in Indian literary and cultural traditions and at the same time relates to universal human experiences. This is probably the cause of its quite astonishing growth in the West in the past twenty years.
The rasa-school of Indian literary theory had long held that the world of the poet was a world of feeling and that it was the inherent power of words to convey feelings, which a poet had to master, to be recognized as a poet. References to the ontology of beauty, the grounding of feeling in an ultimate reality, were not absent in the literature that developed the rasa-theory. To that extent Caitanya's religion of feeling had strong roots in contemporary culture. Equally, the celebration of love between man and woman, based on the attraction of the body as much as on the merging of the souls, its projection unto the divine couple of Radha and Krsna, all this was present before Caitanya appeared on the scene.
In a universe of feelings there are no neutral, indifferent realities, and no relations between such realities, which are devoid of value. If there is a Supreme Being, it must be the source and seat of Supreme Feeling. If there is an other in the form of the jivatman it must be the recipient and addressee of feeling, and if there is a constitutive relationship between these it must be a relationship of feeling. Quantity comes in only to the extent to which this feeling is the only reality and its intensity the only measure of reality. A universe of feeling in its unfolded and differentiated form must contain different kinds of feelings. [...]
Akhila rasamrta murtih ... The complete Embodiment of the Nectar of Feeling ... Krsna stands at the beginning of the exposition of the universe of feelings, Rupa Goswamin's Bhaktirasamrtasindhu. God is essentially feeling - rasa, and his creative-power is inextricably linked with his hladini-shakti, his power to enjoy, and be enjoyed as, beauty.
Klaus Klostermaier, A Universe of Feeling in: Edmund Weber / Tilak Raj Chopra (eds), Shri Krishna Caitanya and the Bhakti Religion, Peter Lang, Frankfurt am Main 1988.
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Post by Nitaidas on Aug 30, 2010 15:01:54 GMT -6
So Mani Baba also has sadhu-sangha before faith. That's interesting. Mani Babuji says in one reply: "in this age there is no longer Vidhi-bhakti" and in the other "up to the stage of attachment is sadhana-bhakti", so I would like to ask what the difference is between vidhi-bhakti and sadhana-bhakti. SAdhana is the means or set of practices one must use to get something which is called the sAdhya. The one who uses those means is called a sAdhaka. The distinction between vaidhi and rAga is about why one wants that thing, the sAdhya. In vidhi-bhakti one practices the sAdhana out of a sense obligation or duty. One does it because it is enjoined in scripture, or because it part of one's culture or family tradition. The sense of obligation either to the sastras or to one's ancestors is the motivating factor. With rAga-bhakti it is passion or desire for the object, the sAdhya, that motivates one to try to achieve it, not any kind of sense of duty or obligation. Thus, there is vaidhi-sAdhana and there is rAga-sAdhana. Sri Rupa describes both and some of the practices are the same differing only in why one does them. If you look closely at Rupa's Brs you will see that vaidhi and raga are really parallel streams. It is not that you start with vaidhi and then graduate to rAga. That is a common misreading of Sri Rupa. He describes a vaidhi-sAdhana and a rAga-sAdhana, but that is not all. Even on the stage of bhAva, there is a vaidhi-bhAva and a rAga-bhava, each the result of its own sAdhana respectively. Finally, one the stage of prema which is the sAdhya there are separate vaidhi and rAga premas. The vaidhi-prema applies to Dvaraka and the rAga prema fits in with Vrndavana. Mani Babu's claim seems to be that Mahaprabhu will draw the love of even those engaged in vaidhi-bhakti such that they will not wind up in Dvaraka, but serving Radha and Krsna in Vraja, only in this Kali-yuga, however. As an example take the oft quoted verse of scripture (Padmottara): smartavyaH satataM viSNurvismartavyo na jAtucit| sarve vidhiniSedhAH syuretayoreva kiGkarAH|| A vaidhi bhakta would look at this verse and consider it an injunction that must be observed out of duty. A rAga-bhakta would look at this same verse not as an injunction but as advice on how best to reach the object of his or her love. Same text, same sAdhana, but approached with different motivations. Thanks for this interesting quote, gerard. You are quite a learned and thoughtful fellow. I am glad to have you here to discuss these things with. This is really quite a big question and I don't think we will be able to do much more than scratch the surface. I think that Klostermaier, whose work I admire, has rather overstated the distinction here and maybe oversimplified it too. It is nice to make big sweeping statements about differences in civilizations and often they look and sound good, but for the most part they really distort the truth. I would never have thought of calling rasa "feeling" and in fact distinguishing between orindary feelings or bhavas, as they are called, and rasa is at the very core of the various forms of rasa aesthetics. My remarks and warnings were directed at those ordinary feelings, bhavas, not rasas which are always regarded in Indian aesthetics as alaukika. How they are thought of as alaukika differs from theoretician to theoretician, but with Rupa, who picks up on the rasa aesthetics rather late in its history, its alaukikatva comes from its being directed at Krsna (actually because it is a manifestation of that zuddha-sattva-visesa). Anyway, to distinguish rasa from ordinary feelings some of us have taken to translating it as "rapture" either aesthetic rapture (Masson and Patwardhan) or sacred rapture (Delmonico). And every one knows that rasa is never just a matter of feeling. Rasa in its use in CV indicates a particular kind of relationship between bhakta and Bhagavan and relationships involve more than just feeling like a servant or a friend or a parent, or a lover. They involve action or sevA of some sort that matches the flavor of the rasa-experience. So even if one wants to mistranslate rasa as "feeling" one has to recognize that more than just feeling is involved. Love is not just a feeling, but an impetus to act. Without the act, one must doubt the feeling. Klostermaier's sweeping generalizations might be more believable if India did not also have its mathematicians and logicians and grammarians, or the West its Nietzsches to balance its Aristotles. I thought a good deal about this when I was doing my dissertation (which is posted in part in another section of this forum). My conclusion was that rasa appeals to the whole person, not just the heart.
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Post by gerard on Aug 31, 2010 10:13:55 GMT -6
I also like Klostermaier, but his translation of rasa in 'feeling' or 'sentiment', as he also does in other places, is limited. But with 'sacred rapture' you might get into somewhat other problems (besides the fact that you have to use two words), I think, with rasas as bibhatsA (vexation) or krodha (anger). These are also indications of a relationship and, as you said, a relationship is more than just a feeling, but in these cases 'sacred rapture' also seems a little out of place. But of course you could say, it is still a relationship with the Lord, so you might call that also 'sacred rapture', but isn't that just a kind of 'feeling' that gets you mukti?
As a historic footnote, while on the subject of Klostermaier, he wrote in the introduction to his 1974 translation of Visvanath Cakravartin's Bhaktirasamrtasindhubindu the following:
"During my two years stay at Vrndavana, Krsna's Holy City, I worked and lived at the 'Institute of Oriental Philosophy' (formerly Vaisnava Visvavidyalaya, now affiliated to Agra University) founded by Swami Bhakti Hrdaya Bon Maharaj, a member of the Madhva Gaudia Vaisnava Sampradaya and a former missionary of the Neo-Caitanyite movement that is becoming known in North-America as the 'Hare-Krishna-Movement'. While in Vrndavana, I came to know Swami A. C. Bhakti Vedanta, the Guru of the American Krsna-people, quite well; he was a frequent visitor to our Institute before he began his American venture. The one man, however, who impressed me most as a true bhakta and a genuine scholar of bhakti was Dina Sarana Dasa—a name, I trust, totally unknown in the West."
The implication of what he thought about Prabhupad is clear.
And does anyone know this Dina Sharana Dasa? Apparently he often compared Christ-bhakti to Krishna-bhakti.
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Post by Nitaidas on Aug 31, 2010 22:25:04 GMT -6
I also like Klostermaier, but his translation of rasa in 'feeling' or 'sentiment', as he also does in other places, is limited. But with 'sacred rapture' you might get into somewhat other problems (besides the fact that you have to use two words), I think, with rasas as bibhatsA (vexation) or krodha (anger). These are also indications of a relationship and, as you said, a relationship is more than just a feeling, but in these cases 'sacred rapture' also seems a little out of place. But of course you could say, it is still a relationship with the Lord, so you might call that also 'sacred rapture', but isn't that just a kind of 'feeling' that gets you mukti? Sacred rapture is a translation for bhakti-rasa, also two words. But those who translate simple rasa as aesthetic rapture do in fact add a word. Still, the aesthetic part of the translation is perhaps its most important feature. One thing one has to realize about rasa is that it is always enjoyable. Even rasas like bibhatsA are enjoyable. That is why they are recognized as rasas and why they are distinguished from ordinary emotions or bhavas. By the way, there is no rasa called krodha. Krodha is the bhava, the ordinary feeling. When something that looks like krodha is presented in a play, it is enjoyed by a sensitive audience and becomes known as raudra, . The use of two names for each rasa is to drive home the fact that they are not the same. Rati is the ordinary emotion, but when relished in art it becomes zRGgAra. The two are not the same. If we witness someone's arm being cut off on the street our reaction would naturally be horror. It would not be enjoyable at all. But, that same scene in a play may be relished. It is the exploration of these different reactions that is at the core of rasa aesthetics. You might think that bibhatsA is not enjoyable but people love horror movies and shows. They derive great pleasure from them, perhaps, say, in the context of a revenge movie, watching the villain get his just deserts. Are this bad people? No. They would be horrified if they saw something like that happen in real life. But in a play or movie, it is a pleasure. One cannot equate rasa with feeling, therefore. Rasa is an experience that transcends mere feeling. Moreover, rasa is often attributed to plays or poems, which obviously don't have feelings. What rasa means in these cases is that certain plays through the expert construction of the dramatist have all that is necessary to create the rasa experience in a qualified audience. Yes, the audience must be cultured and qualified. Not just any audience will do. As for Rupa's adaptation of the rasa aesthetics to bhakti, he does some interesting things. He takes the standard eight or nine and expands them. Rati is divided into five forms and these become the dominant forms of bhakti-rasa: zAnta, dAsya, sakhya, vAtsalya, and madhura. They are dominant because Krsna-rati is prominent in them. The remaining seven are secondary (gauNa). That is because Krsna-rati, though still present, is secondary in them. Thus, the examples of raudra-bhakti-rasa, for instance, are not cases of someone getting angry with Krsna. That is not bhakti-rasa. Raudra bhakti rasa occurs as a counterpart of anger directed at Krsna's enemies or detractors. The cases you have suggested are not cases of bhakti-rasa at all. BibhatsA is the counterpart of disgust for the decaying body, etc. Not disgust with Krsna. Rasa aesthetics is one of India's greatest achievements. It should be carefully studied and correctly understood. I knew that Klostermaier lived for some time at the Institute of Oriental Philosophy. Perhaps Bon Maharaj told me. I stayed there briefly too when the Krsna Balaram Temple was still just a pipe dream and there was an overflow of bhaktas from the West. Bon Maharaj wanted me to become a student there. No, I don't know who this Dinasarana Das is. I have never come across his name in any publication.
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Post by Nitaidas on Aug 31, 2010 22:34:14 GMT -6
Tomorrow more of Mani Babu on the SikSASTaka. He kind of left us hanging with problem in order.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2010 1:57:48 GMT -6
Funny you mention Klostermeier. i just read his small volume "Hindu and Christian in Vrindavan," an auto-biographical account describing some of his experiences during his two-year stay in Vrindavan. The most engaging parts of the book were when he met and shared experience and "feeling" with local practitioners. His account helps the reader to get a glimpse of Vraja of the late 1960s. For someone like myself, it was new knowledge that (I paraphrase) there was no poverty in Vrindavan then; there were neither very rich nor very poor people (although there were water shortages in those days, too!). Where Klostermeier describes going on Vrindavan parikrama, he notes that the "pleasing sands" of Raman Reti were knee-deep on the parikrama marg at that time!
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Post by Nitaidas on Sept 3, 2010 13:05:39 GMT -6
Let's do some more of Mani Babu.
The solution to this problem (the problem with the order of the stages recognized in Mahaprabhu's ZikSASTaka) is found in a verse of Sri Rupa's and Sri Visvanatha's commentary:
utpannaratayaH samyaGnairvighnyamanupAgatAH| kRSNasAkSAtkRtau yogyAH sAdhakAH parikIrtitAH|| (Brs, 2.1.276)
Those who have developed rati for Krsna (i.e., bhAva), but who have not completely overcome all obstacles and yet are suitable for the direct experience of Krsna, are called sAdhakas (practitioners).
And Visvanatha says:
nAmAparAdhalakSaNasyAbhadrasya kazcana kazcana prabalo bhAgaH kSINatvaM gacchan ratiparyanto'pi bhavatiiti bhAvaH| (TIkA on Bhag. 1.2.18)
Some powerful portions of misfortune in the form of offenses to the holy name remain right up to the stage of rati (bhAva).
Thus even in the blowing out of the forest fire of material existence, though offenses may be completely absent some impurities remain uncleansed. Even when a forest fire has been put out by rain showers, in some scattered corners of the area little patches of fire remain---which a little later are completely extinguished. In the same way even when sin, the seeds of sin, and their root-traces (vAsanA) have been destroyed along with offenses, some powerful portions of impurity in the form of offenses to the holy name, though greatly diminished, remain up to the stage of rati and which on that stage of rati become completely destroyed. Then, by one name of Krsna alone one attains the stage of preman. eka kRSNanAme kRSNapade prema upajAya, "By one name of Krsna divine love for Krsna arises" (Cc).
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Post by Nitaidas on Sept 11, 2010 14:14:37 GMT -6
It has been a while since we have had a dose of Mani Babu. How about another? Still on that first verse of the SikSASTaka:
Whatever the case may be, on the stage of attachment (Asakti) the mind of the bhakta becomes so cleansed that in the nearly pure mirror of the mind Sri Bhagavan is suddenly reflected and is perceived as looking at one (Madhurya-kadambini, 6th Downpour). In this condition the tongue of the bhakta, being so intent on tasting the nectar of the holy name, is nearly constantly vibrating (Mk, 6th Downpour). In this way while continuing to do Sri Krsna Sankirtana, gradually, in the pond of the bhakta's pure mind a shining and unprecedented lotus in the form of sacred emotion (bhava) blossoms. This the SikSAStaka calls "the lotus of the highest good." This is the arising of the most auspicious occurrence in the sky of the living being's good fortune, higher than which there can be nothing. Therefore, this is called zreyas (highest good) and since in beauty and sweetness it is unmatchable, it is compared with the lotus. This sacred emotion is being, consciousness, and bliss (sac-cid-Ananda), or in other words it is the budding stage of the three essential powers of Sri Bhagavan, being, consciousness, and bliss. This is called blossoming flower of the wish-fulfilling vine of bhakti (Mk, 7th Downpour).
[More coming]
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Post by gerard on Sept 11, 2010 14:30:38 GMT -6
Beautiful! Thanks, Nitaiji.
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Post by Nitaidas on Sept 25, 2010 13:38:24 GMT -6
Well let's make Saturdays Mani Babu days. I will try to post a piece of his commentary on the Siksastaka every Saturday.
At the touch of the stream of nectar in the form of the light of the moon, a lotus blossoms. In the same way, becoming drenched in the stream of ambrosia in the form of the Sri Nama-sankirtana, the lotus bud of sacred emotion (bhava) blossoms into a hundred-petaled lotus of divine love (preman) in the pure heart/mind of a bhakta (when the last of the impurities have subsided). This is described in the ZikSASTaka as the "wife of knowledge (vidyAvadhU)." In the conversation with Raya Ramananda Mahaprabhu taught us this, through the mouth of Raya Ramananda, about the meaning of knowledge: "Apart from bhakti for Sri Krsna, there is no other knowledge" (Cc M, 8.199) Also in the MuNDaka Upanisad the word vidvAn (possessor of knowledge), in the last quarter of the verse beginning yadApazyapazyate (M U, 3.1.3), is defined in the gloss called the MuktapragrAhavRtti as "possessor of divine love (premavAn)." That is because the purpose of that verse of Zruti is to tell about the attainment of divine love along with seeing Sri Gaura. Therefore, the meaning of "wife of knowledge" in the ZikSASTaka is the "treasure of love." Why was love described as a wife? If one considers the nature of divine love one understands it. Love makes the mind extremely soft, gives the highest joy, and gives one an extreme sense of possession with respect to Sri Krsna. This love, like a wife, has a soft nature, is affectionate, intent on service, and sweet. (he cites as a footnote Brs, 1.4.1 on the nature of prema सम्यङ्मसृणितस-स्वान्तो ...). The actions and marks of a lover are beyond the intellect (reason). During Sri Krsna-sankirtana sometimes one laughs, sometimes one weeps, sometimes one dances like a mad man (Brs 1.8.12 धन्यस्यायं नवप्रेमा ...) "The words actions and traits of one in whose mind Krsna-prema has arisen even wise cannot undertand." (Cc M, 23.35) The lover, losing all sense of the external world because of being absorbed in tasting the sweetness of the holy name, does Sri Krsna-sankirtana without stopping. The tongue drawn to the holy name cannot quit or leave sankirtana of the holy name.
[more next saturday]
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 4, 2010 11:18:07 GMT -6
Well, I missed Saturday. Sorry about that. Not sure what happened. Ah yes. A lot of house work. It is starting to get cold here. Anyway, to catch up here is another section of Mani Babu:
Just as by the pull of the full moon, bodies of water though full increase, so too does the reservoir of preman though full become disturbed and raised up by the moon rays of musical praise through the holy names (Sri Namasankirtana). In this verse of the ZikSASTaka the word AnandAmbudhivardhanam describes this. In this condition perception of the sweetness of the holy names becomes complete. It is as if from the syllables of the name "Sri Krsna" a fountain of sweetness is flowing. ---यः कृष्णनामाक्षर-माधुरी-झरैरास्वादते---(GopAla-campU, pUrva 15th chapter, page 64), "who tastes through springs of sweetness from the syllables of the name Krsna." It seems as if every syllable of the holy name is made of an astonishing ambrosia---याते कृष्णेति शब्द श्रुति-पथममृतादप्यतिद्वादयुक्ते--- (GopAla-campU, 15, page 66), "When the sound 'Krsna' reaches one's ears sweeter than ambrosia ..." In the intoxication of this tasting, the body, mind and all the senses of the lover (premika) are flooded with bliss. In this verse this is described by the words pratipadaM pUrNAmRtAsvAdanaM and sarvAtmasvapanaM. On this stage of bhajana the bhakta has astonishment from tasting the sweetness of the holy name (zrInAmamAdhurya-AsvAdanacamatkAritA). The Goswamis, intimate companions of Sri Gaurahari, have described it in this way:
[more tomorrow]
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 10, 2010 22:20:07 GMT -6
A little more of Mani Babu:
[He quotes a verse from Sri Jiva's GopAla-campU:
zravyaNAM svAdasAraM zrutiranumanute yattu yadvA sudhAbdher manthAllabdhaM rasajJA sukhahRdijasukhaM cittavRttiryadeva | kiM tat kRSNetivarNadvayamayamathavA kRSNavarNadyutinam AjIvyaH ko'pi zazvat sphurati navayuvetyUhayA mohitAsmi || (Gc PUrva, 15 page 67)
[Sri Radha thinks to herself:]
That which the ears take as the essence of delight among things to be heard, Or which the tongue considers obtained from the churning of the ocean of ambrosia, Or which the mind thinks of as the happiness of happinesses born in the heart What are those two syllables "Krs-na" or that Bluish colored light which Some life-giving fresh youth continually manifests? Such deliberations thoroughly enchant me!
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Post by JD33 on Feb 3, 2011 1:56:53 GMT -6
Hi Nitai ji, Can you kindly put this all on a pdf download on here......
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