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Post by avadhutadas on Apr 7, 2022 13:33:03 GMT -6
Isn’t that the IGM company line that Sridhar Swami was trying to convert advaitins to a more dualist viewpoint so he intermingled both beliefs in his commentary?
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Post by meeno8 on Apr 7, 2022 15:48:18 GMT -6
It appears the person is likely just like anyone who uses the term Aryan without recognizing what archaeological evidence supports, which is that they originally came from the region currently known as the nation state of Ukraine, in other words just a fanatic with a nationalist agenda, being an apologist for Muslims not withstanding.
Those ancient Aryans invaded the sub-continent with horses and chariots, where the indigenous people had none. That made the region that much easier to conquer. Now, that is history backed by actual evidence. As Pinker points out, those events of the Old and New Testaments never actually happened, with maybe a few exceptions. Did some trumpets shatter stone walls at Jericho? Only young children should believe those types of myths, not rational adults. Myths do have significance, undoubtedly, but not as history.
My friend and I in 1968 wanted to take the bus down to where the underground newspaper The Seed claimed there would be pot and LSD and free concerts. Luckily the bus drivers were on strike. Then we watched on the evening news the Chicago cops cracking heads with night sticks in what came to be called the 'police riot'. On the floor of the Democratic National Convention down the street they were chanting, "The whole world is watching." Not a good time for Mayor Daley, a real black eye for him in fact. There: Actual documented history that led to the trial of the Chicago 7.
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 8, 2022 10:02:17 GMT -6
Interesting quote. Is this Vinode Baba's comment? I just wanted to follow up on the story (maybe from some other topic?) of how "mayavadis" are bad, this and that (KdK, IGM, ACBS), and in the example I have given (advaita sannyasi teaches a lesson in CV-ashram) we can see that this is not a CV understanding.
And when it comes to the word "Hindu", here is an explanation of the same word by Puri-Shankaracarya. I apologize if I veered off topic. Delete or move.
Surely, dear Jiva, you see the fallacy of this old sannyasi's statement. For one thing there is no mention whatsoever of Hindu in the Vedas, the Mahabharata, the old Puranas or anything written before the 12th cent. or so. There have been several excellent scholarly essays tracing the root of the word Hindu. One of the best is by Arvind Sharma in the Journal Numen entitled "Hindu, Hindusthan, Hinduism, and Hindutva. It is available on jstor for free if one becomes a member (also free, one gets one hundred free reads a month, I think, and older articles can be downloaded for free). Anyway, the fallacy is to suppose that the word Hindu always refers to the religion of the name. It does not and has not until relatively recently (~12th century or so). The oldest reference found so far is from the Avesta the ancient Persian counterpart to the Vedas. There there is a reference to the Hapta Hindhava, this is the ancient Persian for Sapta Sindhava which means the seven rivers (Sindhu). As such, for a millennium Hindhu (Sindhu) referred merely the river and this was in Persian texts, Greek texts, and eventually Muslim texts, not in any Sanskrit or Prakrit texts. At some point its meaning was expanded to mean the peoples who live east of the Sindhu river. Its first use as a name for a religious group was in a Chinese text from the 8th century CE. All this is documented in the article by Sharma. One has to be careful, Sri Jiva, not to believe everything you read or hear (even from me). One will get misled by these old geezers. One has to look for evidence and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of a late development of the word Hindu, through a mispronunciation of the river name Sindhu, into a name for a religion. It is certainly not another name for Sanatana dharma and Sanatana dharma itself is merely a snapshot of a phase in the long development of religious and social thinking in India that continues to evolve. There is nothing Sanatana about it.
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 8, 2022 11:19:38 GMT -6
Isn’t that the IGM company line that Sridhar Swami was trying to convert advaitins to a more dualist viewpoint so he intermingled both beliefs in his commentary? It is interesting that you attribute it to IGM as if anyone there is clever enough or literate enough to come up with it. It is really a view expressed by Sri Jiva in his Tattva-sandarbha, paragraph 27, which was discussed in Stuart Elkman's excellent translation and discussion of the Tattva-sandarbha. If you haven't read it I suggest you do. I think maybe Nityananda Das or Eduardo may have a pdf version they can share with you. However, I do not think this is really true. I think there are two other more likely scenarios: that Sridhara was a member of the Visnusvami sampradaya called SudhhAdvaita as has been argued by Haridas Das Babaji in his article on him in his Gaudiya Vaisnava Abhidhan (see my introduction to the Bhagavata posted in another thread in this symposium for a translation of that), or he was actually a member of the Sankara lineage which had, from the very beginning, a strong bhakti-strain in it that developed into a sub-tradition called the Bhagavatas (as opposed to the SmArtas). This is proposed by Radhamohan Goswami (18th cent. Advaita-vamsi) in his commentary on paragraph 27 of Sri Jiva's Tattva-sandarbha. Given the re-evaluation of Sankara's views on the basis of recent scholarship on him and the weakness of the evidence for the existence of Visnuswami and his sampradaya, I think that the latter view is the most likely. Anyway, I doubt that any self-respecting Advaitin who reads this verse and then Sridhara's mis-interpretation of it would be persuaded. I say mis-interpretation because it is clear that the Bhagavata really means kalA, not kal. Thus we have the Purana's clear and simple meaning which is altered by Sridhara and following him Sri Jiva and following him Sri Visvanatha. This Bhagavata reading/translation is getting interesting. It seems to demonstrate, on the basis of this verse and several others, that by the 14th century the Bhagavata's plain and simple meaning was no longer pleasing to its reader/commentators. Of course, these purely Advaitic verses in the Bhagavata may be interpolations. Such verses do seem to spring up in odd places that have only marginal connections with what comes before them and after them. This may be the result of a Advaitin "re-write" of the text at some relatively early point. Anyway, Advaita-vada ki jaya! Remember we are acintya-bhed Abheda-vAda. We are miniscule kalAs of Sri Krsna! (vibhinnAMza-sakti, sphulinga)
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Post by avadhutadas on Apr 9, 2022 16:35:25 GMT -6
Haha I don’t know why I thought it was an IGM concoction. It’s propagandists all the way down! I do have the first four Sandarbhas. They are over my head at the moment. I’m not much of a philosopher.
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Post by avadhutadas on Apr 9, 2022 16:35:57 GMT -6
KalA would mean part and parcel correct?
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 9, 2022 21:59:39 GMT -6
KalA would mean part and parcel correct? Right. Strictly speaking it means 1/16 of something, but it often means simply a part or portion.
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 9, 2022 22:11:20 GMT -6
Haha I don’t know why I thought it was an IGM concoction. It’s propagandists all the way down! I do have the first four Sandarbhas. They are over my head at the moment. I’m not much of a philosopher. Yah! They are tough going. It is unnecessary unless one wants to argue with others and try to convert them. Really all we need is the Mahamantra. Delving into all that philosophy is very much like that Buddhist example of the man pierced by an arrow not letting anyone pull it out until he knows what it is made of, who shot it, from what village, etc. etc. By the time he has all his answers he will be dead. It is not necessary for sadhana at all. It doesn't make you a better sadhaka. No one will question you on the sandarbhas when you are ready to enter Goloka. It is something like a prurient desire for those of us with twisted minds.
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 11, 2022 10:24:22 GMT -6
Greetings Everyone, Happy Post Ramanavami. Hope everyone had a splendid time celebrating the great Rama. I did something special on that day. I went with Betsy and my friend Lloyd to a Chandi homa up in Fairfield, Ioway. This was organized and performed by a lively and devout priest from Chicago who has been coming to Fairfield for years to celebrate the various holidays special to the Goddess. This was the first visit since the Covid period began. It was great to see him again and reconnect with some of the folks we got to know from previous homas and other celebrations (Siva-ratri). There we were sitting around a fire pit listening to Sharmaji recite the Durga-sapta-sati and making offerings into the fire along with ghee and other offerings (no human sacrifices). It was delightful once the day warmed up and the wind died down a bit. I got a couple of turns sitting next to the fire and feeding it offerings and finally a chance to offer ghee and the main offerings. It was great to participate in the ritual which lasted about 5 hours with a puja and prasada afterward. Along with the other great goddesses, we honored Mahalakshmi and Mahasarasvati. I will post some other pictures a little later. Sharmaji and me:
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Apr 15, 2022 3:53:43 GMT -6
After my long disquisition I offer to the group a link to a sweet movie about Mahaprabhu. Yesterday we had a powerful emotional reading from Shishir Kumar's Lord Gauranga on his sannyasa and immediate departure for Vrindaban. It made me want to see what movies were available on the life of Sri Caitanya. There turn out to be several. Here is Nader Nimai here.pibata rasamalayam! Thanks for the recommendation, Nitai-ji. I watched this this morning and thoroughly enjoyed it, particularly the vintage kirtana, which would nowadays be ruined by over-production, auto-tune and the like!
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Post by service to Radha's feet on Apr 17, 2022 20:46:35 GMT -6
After my long disquisition I offer to the group a link to a sweet movie about Mahaprabhu. Yesterday we had a powerful emotional reading from Shishir Kumar's Lord Gauranga on his sannyasa and immediate departure for Vrindaban. It made me want to see what movies were available on the life of Sri Caitanya. There turn out to be several. Here is Nader Nimai here.pibata rasamalayam! Thanks for sharing this!!!
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Apr 18, 2022 3:43:16 GMT -6
Yes, Krishna Prem wrote some good stuff, I read most of his books but does anyone know what his gaudiya vaisnava writings, if any, are? All I've seen are theosophical writings. More or less theosophical. I don't know if he wrote anything directly on CV. I am finally reading his Initiation into Yoga, and I just got his Yoga of the Bhagavad-gita. His Yoga of the Kathopanisad is on the way. I don't understand his relationship with Theosophy and Madam Blavatsky. Talk about fictional mystics. Anyway, his disciple Madhav Ashish seems to have respected her work and maybe he did, too. They wrote a book together called Man, the Measure of All Things that is a commentary on stanzas supposedly "revealed" to the good madam by some ascended master. There seem to be some collections of Sri Krishna Prem's letters that I would like to look at and Madhav Ashish was writing a biography of Sri Krishna Prem when he died (1997). Perhaps that will come out sometime and clear up some of these questions. His guru was a Bengali woman named Yasoda Mai who was initiated by one of the Radharaman Goswamis, I believe. It would be great to turn up something clearly influenced by CV in his work, but perhaps he kept that to himself. Hi everyone, Just me, bumping a 12-year-old thread again, as I came across this post about Krishna Prem and wanted to reply! Yes, he was a Theosophist first, then a Buddhist, then briefly a Vedantist, before becoming a Vaishnava. Theosophy is something I find hard to accept, too, but Yashoda Mai's husband, a Shakta by background, was a committed Theosophist who knew HPB and accompanied Annie Besant to the Parliament of Religions (where Vivekananda represented Hinduism). He was also regarded as the latter's guru for a time. theosophy.wiki/en/G._N._ChakravartiBoth Yashoda Mai and Krishna Prem accepted the existence of the Theosophical 'Masters' and the Uttar Brindaban ashram had pictures of Blavatsky’s Masters alongside those of Radha-Krishna and other Hindu gods. He learnt Hindi from the Bhagavata, and obviously wrote commentaries on the Gita and Kathopanishad, but as far as I know never mentions the Goswamis or their writings. Both Madhava Ashish and Charles Brooks, in The Hare Krishnas in India, are of the opinion that neither were particularly attracted to Chaitanya, but the fact the Chakravartis had a pre-existing relationship with Bal Krishna Goswami of Radha Raman Temple meant they ended up in the Gaudiya sampradaya. Monica was keen that her disciple be accepted by Vaishnava society and made sure he got a proper initiation, whereas she probably wouldn't have bothered otherwise. So they are in the lineage but I think it could have just as easily been the Pushtimarg or whoever, depending on how things shook out. (Interestingly, Dilip Kumar Roy is supposedly in the Advaita vamsa!) He also very much stressed a multi-faceted yogic approach towards the 'Path' -- Madhava Ashish would say he liked gyana to bones and bhakti to flesh: neither can live without the other. This is similar to what Helena Blavatsky once told GN Chakravarti on the difference: "‘Some people like jam with their bread and some like cheese." The biography, which is really more of a history of the ashram, exists, though it finishes abruptly in 1950. While it would not be released in its current form (it's more a collection of notes and anecdotes) but I am drawing on it for my biography.
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Jon
Junior Member
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Post by Jon on Apr 18, 2022 4:00:13 GMT -6
After my long disquisition I offer to the group a link to a sweet movie about Mahaprabhu. Yesterday we had a powerful emotional reading from Shishir Kumar's Lord Gauranga on his sannyasa and immediate departure for Vrindaban. It made me want to see what movies were available on the life of Sri Caitanya. There turn out to be several. Here is Nader Nimai here.pibata rasamalayam! Thanks for the recommendation, Nitai-ji. I watched this this morning and thoroughly enjoyed it, particularly the vintage kirtana, which would nowadays be ruined by over-production, auto-tune and the like! This is the sequel, which I have yet to watch: www.youtube.com/watch?v=flj9pfMoJ2c
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Post by service to Radha's feet on Apr 19, 2022 19:52:58 GMT -6
Avadhuta-ji, Radhe Radhe! Where do you know this info from about BS's guru as a young boy? Radhe Radhe Nityananda dasji. Just some good old internet sleuthing. Start about halfway down this thread with the comment by Kalki das gaudiyadiscussions.gaudiya.com/topic_1897.htmland also note the comment by Keshava that contains the paragraph, “ "At the age of 12, according to his father's desire he (ACBSP) accepted initiation from the family guru, Mahindranath Goswami. Remaining with his mother and father in worldly life he began the practice of so many rules concerning proper Vaishnava behavior." The biography of Bhaktivedanta, written by Satsvarupa Goswami says: At age twelve, though it made no deep impression on him, Abhay was initiated by a professional guru. The guru told him about his own master, a great yogi, who had once asked him, “What do you want to eat?”
Abhay’s family guru had replied, “Fresh pomegranates from Afghanistan.”
“All right,” the yogi had replied. “Go into the next room.” And there he had found a branch of pomegranates, ripe as if freshly taken from the tree. A yogi who came to see Abhay’s father said that he had once sat down with his own master and touched him and had then been transported within moments to the city of Dvaraka by yogic power."The biographer wants to show that Bhaktivedanta's guru was a yogi, not a bhakta. It is debatable if the guru was a Vaisnava, or not. Below is when Bhaktidedanta revealed that he was initiated when he was 12 year old. Prabhupāda: Yes, that was the training in the childhood. This Ratha-yātrā, Rādhā-Govinda sevā, prasāda distribution. Only the new thing I am doing—writing of books by the order of Guru Mahārāja. Otherwise, whatever I have introduced, I was trained up in childhood. I simply imitated. I am simply surprised, nowadays, even a low-class . . . formerly all our maidservant and neighborhood maidservant, they had two business: one prostitute and one maidservant. Otherwise they could not maintain. Simply by becoming maidservant, they have no sufficient income. We were paying them for not whole time three rupees.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow!
Prabhupāda: Per month. So one house, three rupees, another house, three rupees, another house . . . in this way their income was ten to twelve rupees. Well, that was not sufficient.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not much.
Prabhupāda: So they had to allow the prostitution. But they were happy. But in that income in those men, they had a guru. The guru would come.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They had a guru.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even the maidservants.
Prabhupāda: In Bengal there are professional gurus. They travel from one house to another. Our paternal guru was coming like that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You had a professional guru also?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You had a paternal guru?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I was initiated by that professional guru at the age of twelve years. Later on I rejected him.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I wonder if he had any thought that his disciple, Your Divine Grace, would be one day such a devotee all over the world. You always said that's the perfection of a guru, if he has good disciple. So your professional guru had a best disciple.
Prabhupāda: But Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī later on, when I was young man, manager in Dr. Bose's laboratory . . . that my friend, Narend Mullik, he took me. There is direction, for real guru one can give up this professional guru.(VRNDAVAN - July 01, 1977) Bhaktivedanta himself has said, he rejected his guru. Some small note on the subject: Bhaktivedanta at times expressed that his family had some connection with the sub-castes community of Subarna-banik in Bengal who were merchants. He mentions that Sri Uddharana Datta Thakur, an associate of Sri Nityananda was a member of that community. Nowadays one would see references by his followers suggesting that Bhaktivedanta's family were connected Sri Uddarana Datta Thakur, although there was none.
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 24, 2022 10:26:03 GMT -6
Thanks for the recommendation, Nitai-ji. I watched this this morning and thoroughly enjoyed it, particularly the vintage kirtana, which would nowadays be ruined by over-production, auto-tune and the like! This is the sequel, which I have yet to watch: www.youtube.com/watch?v=flj9pfMoJ2cThanks Jon, it is next on my list. These are lovely old depictions. I wonder how many were made in India on Mahaprabhu. I remember seeing part of one in which Mahaprabhu was depicted as a kind of zombie, with a totally blank face and little evidence of life or reaction to things happening around him. That turned me off of Indian films on Mahaprabhu for a long time.
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