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Post by Ldd on Oct 17, 2009 8:09:21 GMT -6
Not every one here has asampradaya tendencies, but some do. I don't know or care if they are initiated or not. I think Nitai and Madan are bhakta sanskritists. they may be trustworthy representatives of GV. A bhakta is not arrogant to the point where he will challenge the conclusions of bhagwat, Vyasa, the seers, Krishna in public. Yoga -- control the tongue, the mind. Not everything they manufacture deserves to be broadcasted or argued about. If you plant the holy names in your mind, like a friend of mind tells- -me 64 rounds a day, it wouldn't matter if the planet fell from its orb. Only Krishna and spiritual truth would matter.
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 17, 2009 8:38:17 GMT -6
Some time ago we heard that of the people here only about ten are initiated into vaisnava lineage. The recommendation is everyone should march to Radhakund to get initiated by baba to be able to represent the tradition. So submissive innocent lambs grab the bait and rush to Radhakund for diksha. Come back and click on CV forum for “sanga” This “sanga” is a new something called “sane vaisnavism” because the other vaisnavas are certainly insane. This “sane vaisnavism” is I guess an adaption of Krishna culture that would appeal to a fragment of the population – the academic populace of Europe and America. The motive is noble and I’m in accordance with it. Every one should benefit from Krishna. But a sane “vaisnava” will not make a mockery of the wisdom and sentiments of baba, guru, Bhagwat gita, Bhagwat etc. He’s too humble to challenge those at least publicly, even though he may be internally confused at times. He is so focused on bhajan that Krishna illuminates his heart. Like some people who are so confused and sick to death of their own existence, they come here pretending to be intellectual giants and incarnations of Darwin to try to win at least one admirer.. Though you are “sane” by today’s standards, I’m sorry to say you are not vaisnava. If you were honest you won’t hold on to this fraudulent claim. But you are not - you use the word vaisnava to attract people to join your cult. Doubtlessly you like Krishna. That is noble and admirable. You want to hear of Bhagwan, you even chant his name. You dabble in his philosophy. It’s wonderful, from my standpoint. But Krishna bars you from knowing the truth – and you remain buried in delusion. He says in Gita that this knowledge is meant for those with faith. You cannot wage a public battle against the wisdom of the sadhus and seers and call yourself devotee. This asampradaya you are trying to form may attract a few people blinded by science, and I said ‘may’. But Iskcon has been making Krishna devotees out of university students worldwide, without having to make a mockery of sastra and guru. Iskcon actually make the devotees, Krishna is acting through them - face it. If you are arrogant, you cannot convince another arrogant – so you cannot convince anyone about Krishna in your circle. You pretend to guide and advise people coming out of Iskcon and GM. That’s all you can do. You can broadcast evolution and Darwin mixed with a bit of Krishna all you want. But you are not vaisnava. Be honest now. Sanskrit scholars live billions of planets away from Krishna. He does not care for them, nor Bengali scholars. There are bhakta Sanskritists elsewhere, who are adhere to vaisnava siddhanta. They have sites and blogs on the internet. These here though they’re so called “properly initiated” do not represent the tradition. They are regular professionals with some academic knowledge of Krishna. They have absolutely no faith in Him. They are hopelessly inflated and come here to show off… Fame is their game. I guess this is directed at me, so I should try to put forward an answer of some sort. This line of thinking, if it can be called "thinking," is what usually comes out of the blind faith camp. This camp advocates an approach to CV that belittles and despises questioning of any sort and is decidedly anti-intellectual. This accounts for all the jibes at academics and scholars that occur so often in the above passage, as if intellectuals or scholars were somehow deficient or twisted human beings. What are scholars really? Scholars are people who have decided not to take things at face value, but to dig more deeply into things, to ask questions and make greater exertions and efforts to discover the truth about something. This is also what is required of a genuine disciple. Disciples are not to just roll over and play dead at the feet of the guru. Rather, they are to ask questions, inquire into things, test things and generally make every effort in their power to discover the truth. Hard questions must be asked. Appearances should be looked beyond and behind. And the guru, if he or she is a genuine guru, should expect this, indeed require this, from a disciple, and when this inquisitive spirit is found in a disciple the genuine guru should appreciate and admire it. There is nothing worse than a lazy and dull disciple. One should not accept things blindly. Blind faith is stupidity and no one wants a stupid disciple. What I have been calling sane Vaisnavism is a Vaisnavism that is not based on blind faith. It is not a lazy form of Vaisnavism either, one in which others are expected to do the thinking for one. As followers of CV we have a charter that is granted to us in the very first verse of the Bhagavata. satyam param dhimahi. Let us meditate on the highest truth. This means that we must seek out the highest truth wherever we find it and not be afraid when our researches trample on other peoples' lesser truths. And we should not lose courage when our search takes us into new territory or when the results we get appear to or actually do conflict with older expressions of that truth. It is our duty to pursue the truth to the end. That is the meaning of param in the verse. Now, I think that Darwinism and the findings of modern science pose real challenges to the traditional set of beliefs passed down through CV. One can either face those challenges or hide one's head in the sand like the square one here proposes. But remember what part of you is exposed when your head is buried in the sand. That is how the world will perceive you. Not only that, any clever charlatan can come along and have his way with you while you are in that compromised position and that is what has been happening with the IGM square so roundly praises. They came, they saw, they buggered and still they are "making" bhaktas in this way. That is not what I call attracting people to Krsna. That is exploitation of peoples' stupidity and if that is what one wants, go get it!
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Post by Ldd on Oct 17, 2009 8:57:02 GMT -6
no not directed to you personally. But how long are you going to be affected by how people percieve you? Remember that the soul -- the real you is invincible and unaffected. you must reach to that understanding.
If you're sharing the same bed with Darwin's grandaughter thats a different matter.. you have to deal with it.
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 17, 2009 9:07:45 GMT -6
Why do we want things?I will muse that the nature of the jiva (and the nature of everything) is syntropy, rather than entropy, and that is why we desire. You may muse and it sounds very clever. But is it true? We don't always want "harmonious" association with others. We often want to eat them, ingest them, digest them, make them disappear into us, and then belch.
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 17, 2009 9:26:27 GMT -6
Report from the BL. I discovered that the BL has some interesting works on and by Sri Rasikamohan Vidyabhusana. There is one on his life and work that I have on order for Monday. It was published in 1949 in Bengali. I forget the author. I will provide more details on this next week.
There is a work that I have been searching for. On the title page of Sri Krsnakamal Goswami's Svapna-vilasa, his yatra on the feelings of separation the people of Braj feel for Krsna after he goes to Mathura, he mentions that the play is done is the style of the Gitagovinda and the Gaurangavilasa. What is this Gaurangavilasa? I spent a good part of yesterday looking in the catalogs for an edition of the book, but found nothing. Does anyone know more about this book? Is it Sanskrit or Bengali? etc. etc.
Starting on Monday I will be looking at the blue slips, these are books from India, Bengal to be exact, that have not yet been cataloged, either in the printed catalogs or the online catalog. I am hopeful of finding some good stuff. Maybe the Gaurangavilasa will be there.
I discovered another book by Sri Shyamlal Goswami called the Sadhaka-jivani. It is a collection of brief accounts of great bhakta sadhakas. It was published relatively late for the Goswami, 1926, I think. I have not looked at it yet, but expect to next week.
I continue to work on the Goswami's introduction to his Sri Krsnalila and will post it here when I have accumulated a goodly amount. His commentary in Bengali on the Brahma-sutras also looks interesting. I think I will translate some of the opening sections of that.
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Post by Ldd on Oct 17, 2009 11:19:58 GMT -6
we find people flip flopping around explaining why the evolution theory is part of their search for truth (Krishna) What we're witnessing is the minds of brainwashed people who teach university curiculum for a living. its their bread, butter and support. They are not neutral minded.
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 18, 2009 8:39:55 GMT -6
I apologize for the use of obscene imagery in one of my previous posts. The image suggested itself to me as I tried to envision someone with his or her head buried in the sand. And it did seem apropos at the time. I trust the members of this forum, however, to see through the silliness of the position proposed by Mr. square, that is, the attribution of being brainwashed by association by one who pretends to have a neutral mind. As if I or anyone else were not able to think for ourselves on these matters. We just reflect the opinions around us like chameleons.
I must admit that I am more concerned at present with finding the truth, than I am with insuring that it turns out to be Krsna's truth. Perhaps it is true that a true Vaisnava would always want to bend things in such a way that everything always points to Krsna. But isn't that a warped search for truth? Should we not instead be confidant that our search for the truth will lead us to Krsna, though sometimes in the middle of the search it may not seem to be doing so? If so, then a person who insists on blending the truth to always point to Krsna may be said to be guilty of lack of faith and is in some meaningful sense a charlatan, perhaps a well-meaning one, but nevertheless as charlatan. One who pursues the truth, on the other hand, without worrying about whether it should be bent at this point or that in order to insure arrival at some predefined desired goal is then in possession of a greater faith or confidence in Krsna than the other and is more worthy of the name Vaisnava.
But then what's in a name, anyway? Indeed, why should we care what anyone else calls us?
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 18, 2009 9:52:39 GMT -6
Some reflections on the commentary of Sri Anupanarayana Bhattacharya (Siromani).
One of the texts I have been spending time with at the BL is that mysterious commentary on the Brahma-sutras by Anupanarayana Siromani which was published in 1810 (apparently---I have found no such date on the actual book. But it is quite old). I have been typing in his comments on the first four sutra for possible inclusion in volume three of the Fundamentals of Vedanta. As I type I am gradually beginning to recognize the influence of the Caitanya tradition on this writer. For instance, in his comments on the famous second sutra: janmAdy asya yataH he states that this sutra gives a definition of Brahman. The sutra means "that from which the birth and so forth of this universe arises." He then goes on to say that Brahman is the source of creation, maintenance, and dissolution of the world, either directly or indirectly (anvaya-vyatireka). This addition to the meaning of the sutra is surely taken from the first verse of the Bhagavata: janmAdy asya yato'nvayAd itarata"s ca. He goes on to define "directly" and "indirectly" in interesting ways which I will discuss later in another posting. Nevertheless, the important point is that he is using the first verse of the Bhagavata to comment on and expand the meaning of the sutra of the Brahma-sutras. The idea that the Bhagavata is the proper commentary on the Brahma-sutra is a central notion of the Caitanya tradition. Siromani does not say that is what he is doing (as Baladeva does for instance). He just does it.
This becomes even more clear when looks a little farther in the commentary on that same sutra. Siromani asks the question, what kind of definition is it? Is it the essential definition (svarupa-laksana) or the peripheral or secondary definition (taTastha-laksana) of Brahman. The definition of Brahman as the source of the creation and so forth of the universe is according to Siromani its secondary definition. A secondary definition defines something in terms of a trait it has that distinguishes it from other things. It does not define something in terms of what a thing is in and of itself. The essential definition does that. What then is the essential definition of Brahman? Siromani says that the essential definition of Brahman is found in two words: satyam (truth) and sarvajna (all-knower). This puzzled me for a while. Why should these two be the essential nature of Brahman? Then it occurred to me. Those two words are also found in that first verse of the Bhagavata: satyam param dhImahi and arthesu abhijnaH. Abhijna is usually defined as abhitah jna, knowing in all ways, i.e. all-knowing (more reflections on these two words later). Siromani is essentially drawing his commentary from the Bhagavata, at least in this part of the text. On Monday I will do another section and see where that gets me.
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Post by Ldd on Oct 18, 2009 10:20:00 GMT -6
The bhagwat and puranas were meant to be expounded by dwijas or vaisnavas only, to prevent misinterpretation. It requires an understanding of brahman. It is against protocol to expound it to pashandi (faithless) For them Buddhism and other philosophies were designed – and it works very well. No harm if you teach them a Krishna mantra along with it. In the past some faithless comentators ( no one here) have given various speculations on these literatures. This is not the business of people who don’t understand the concept of spirit. Those who spout the theories of evolution do not believe in spirit, far less they would believe in Krishna. Jivas who are minute spiritual droplets of Krishna do not have to carved out like pottery, the way some creationists interpret, to take form. Jivas are imbued with all of Krishna’s potencies, both spiritual material. Just as Krishna could manifest as a lion or boar, the same potency to manifest a material form lies within the jiva. Krishna becomes Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra to monitor the material world, its creation and destruction etc. Krishna is a yogi and he does everything simply by wishing it. Krishna ( purusha) impregnates prakriti by his glance and that’s how the jivas are transferred to it. Brahma his creating potency then meditates on pradhana (material nature) Just by Brahma’s meditating the jivas manifest different forms. Its not done like a doll factory. The forms depends on the desires that the different jivas carry within them. This is how the Vishnu puran explains it. But to know this you must first understand the concept of Brahman. Tomorrow I will tell of Krishna’s nature and his involvement in all this.
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Post by Ldd on Oct 19, 2009 10:42:15 GMT -6
I don’t care if people believe in evolution or they worship a tree, Krishna is both sat and asat. One is liberating one is binding. Different natures, but equally Krishna. The material world is a place for people to fulfill ahankara., where they can do act, or think as they please. So why on earth should I care if they believe in evolution or creation? I also encourage a girlfriend to chant Buddhist mantras because she likes it. I don’t feel the need to make bhaktas. He already has enough, and Iskcon has taken that up. I just found it a little weird that “bhaktas” would be so attached to asat theories. One thing is Krishna’s truth is changeless. “Asat” is changeful. If people are attached to dying and reborning for example who cares? I am not here to convince them against it and never will. Creation is not about shaping potty – fashioning by hand from clay. Its done through the power of them mind.. If you are so gross that you don’t believe in the existence of mysticsm, who am I talking to? If you are attached to grossness, fine. Its truth just as well.
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 19, 2009 17:16:08 GMT -6
On Saturday, I went to participate in Divali at the Swami Narayana Temple in Northwest London. It was rather an amazing experience. There seemed like there were millions of people around, though the crowd was probably only a few thousand. We started out about 6:30 PM. As we got closer and closer to the tube stop the train population became nearly 90% people of South Asian ancestry. Once out of the train we joined a river of people flowing toward the temple. There free shuttles from the station to the temple provided by the London transport service. Bus after bus filled up to capacity and over. It was like stepping through time and space and finding oneself in India. Traffic was very slow as many temple visitors chose to drive to the temple. A ten minute ride lasted half an hour. Once there, we joined a sea of people flowing this way and that. The temple was radiated with a blue light and looked quite otherworldly peeking up over the enclosing wall. As we approached the entrance we were notified that we could not bring in any bags. So we had to retreat to a school across the street where a security deposit room had been created. My wife deposited her bag there and received a reclaim number.
Then we started our swim back through the crowds again to the entrance of the temple. What organization! We first went quickly through metal detectors, deposited our shoes in a large shoe check area run by kids, very efficient kids. I had my number in seconds and I was off padding down a long, tented and carpeted corridor that twisted and turned and eventually deposited Betsy and me at the entrance to the temple proper where men and women were separated into two lines and channeled into separate areas in the temple room. The women were on a platform about three feet higher than the men and stood above and behind them before each of the altars.
The first altar was Sri Ganesh. He looked very jolly and rotund and seemed happy to see everyone. His belly was round and large and one could almost see it bounce as he danced. Next came Sita and Ram. They were quite beautiful. Then came an altar containing seated saints, I assume, the founders and earlier saints of the Swami Narayana tradition. After them in the place of honor came the Sri Radha and Krsna altar. They were quite beautiful, as well. Krsna had his flute to his lips and Radha was smiling. They did not say anything, but they seemed quite happy. After that there was an altar with three male figures, one of them (on the left) golden. I am not sure who they were. I guess I could have asked one of the attendants standing nearby, but they were mostly concerned with keep the men moving along. I dubbed them Krsna and Balarama and the golden one Sri Gauranga. Those were the mantras I used at any rate when I offered pranams. Finally, there was an altar that seemed to have a picture of a sannyasi reclining and chatting with other renunciants, head shaved and saffron clothed. I took him for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu (though it seems possible but unlikely).
The temple was really splendid, filled with beautiful sculpture, made of the finest marble. It is really a testament to the wealth of the Hindu community in London. As I was channeled out of the temple proper I entered a huge hall that was just being refit from one function to another. It was enormous. On one end was a row of statues and the Vyasasana and the huge space was covered with carpeting. It was divided into two sections, one for men and the other for women. There were sannyasis scattered about chatting with patrons. It looked like a lecture or ceremony of some sort had just ended.
Then out to the reception area which houses a store and a bank of cash registers where people were queued up giving donations. It was filled people and I had a hard to locating my wife. Eventually I just gave up and got in line to recover my shoes. Again amazing efficiency. In seconds a young lad was depositing the plastic bag containing my shoes in front of me. About fifteen minutes later my wife came through the shoe line and we were together again. It was amazingly well conceived organized to handle thousands of guests on that important night. The only thing I missed was the prasad. I was not sure were to find that. They must have been selling it somewhere.
Across from the temple was a food tent where one could buy all kinds of food. We went for the jalebis, though there were also, puris and chana, samosa-pakora, pizza, and idli-sambhar. It was immensely crowded and waits were long. Warm jalebis were about all we had time to get. Announcements starting telling of the approaching fireworks show. We wandered across the road in another direction towards a large sports field. We never actually made it to the field. Got stuck in traffic, but we saw the fireworks fine, anyway. They were beautiful. Far better than the Fourth of July fireworks I have seen in many places in the US. Though the crowd was immense and people kept shoving their ways through in mostly vain efforts to get to the field, it was a well behaved crowd and no one panicked, though we were literally packed shoulder to shoulder, front to back.
All-in-all it was a grand experience. I think I will try to go back to the temple sometime when it is not mobbed.
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Post by madanmohandas on Oct 22, 2009 4:28:15 GMT -6
Sounds like quite an event Nitai. Neasden is where I was born and grew up. There is another mandir worth seeing called Sri Sanatan Mandir which is in Ealing Road, Alperton; not far from Neasden. They are somewaht affiliated to the Pusti marga of Vallabha. Also the shops there are all Indian and you can get green coconuts and all sorts of things you would otherwise need to go to India to get.
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 22, 2009 6:38:30 GMT -6
Sounds like quite an event Nitai. Neasden is where I was born and grew up. There is another mandir worth seeing called Sri Sanatan Mandir which is in Ealing Road, Alperton; not far from Neasden. They are somewaht affiliated to the Pusti marga of Vallabha. Also the shops there are all Indian and you can get green coconuts and all sorts of things you would otherwise need to go to India to get. Thanks, madanmohanji. I will check it out. My wife is always ready to go where the Indian stores are. Another temple is an added attraction, more for me than her. I don't know much about the Swami Narayana tradition, but I must say they seem to have it together here in London. Visiting a Pustimarga temple would be a treat. My suspicion is that whatever the main leaning of a particular temple all the various gods and goddesses get included, especially if there are patrons to support them.
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 22, 2009 6:56:54 GMT -6
Report from the BL:
I have started going through the blue slips for Bengali. The blue slips contain information on books held by the library, but not in any of the catalogs, printed or online. Books listed in the printed catalogs are also generally not online. One cannot for instance plug into the online catalog the name Syamalal Goswami and get any results. Actually, one does get one result from that search: his 1895 edition of the Isavasya Upanisad which some how got into the online catalog. None of his other books appear there though many of them are in the printed catalogs available in the reading room. I am compiling a list and I will make it available towards the end of my stay here for anyone who is interested. The books are there and if you have a valid reader's pass you can call them up and read them.
As for the blue slips, though I am finding lots of stuff, I am a little disappointed. Everything I find comes from the 1930-1940s. I was hoping for materials from 1880s. This probably means that if something is not in the printed catalogs from that period, the BL does not have it. Only later texts are found in the blue slips. There is something comparable for the Sanskrit works, but those are on microfilm. If I get time I will go through those too. I want by the time I leave to have as complete a list as I can of all the holdings of the BL in the CV in Bengali and Sanskrit. Then later, as and if the need arises, I can request copies. So far I am most deeply impressed with the work of Sri Syamlal Goswami, but others are also starting to make an appearance. Surendranath Goswami, possibly Kanupriya Goswami's father, seems to have done some interesting stuff. Among his works seem to be some novels which I want to look at. What is a novel by a CV like in Bengali? How does CV affect the way the novel is written? Etc. etc. The works of other Goswamis and Vaisnavas are also starting to emerge.
On Friday, I should have some other interesting books to look at and report on.
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Post by Ekantin on Oct 23, 2009 15:26:45 GMT -6
Glad to see you've visited the Swaminarayan temple in Neasden. It is a beautiful temple indeed, I've been several times and taken some good pictures. I can't imagine attending on such a occasion as Diwali because of the crowds, but I'm glad you had a nice time.
This particular branch of the Swaminarayan sect is known as 'Bochasanwasi Shri Akshar Purushottam Swaminarayan Sanstha', or BAPS for short. I found out through Internet discussion boards that they are different from the 'true' Swaminarayan sect. In other words, the BAPS people are rather like the IGM when compared to the 'true' tradition, which is based in Gujarat. I understand that they have similar issues regarding disciplic succession although I never got around to examining the details. A similarly opulent temple has been built in Atlanta fair recently, so I hear. The whole Swaminarayan tradition is very much a 'Gujarati' thing just as CV is a 'Bengali' thing, it seems to be relevant only to those Gujaratis who are followers of the sect, whereas other Indians and Western visitors like to attend the temple to see it's grand opulence.
It's been some time since I was last there, but the main deities you saw were probably that of Sahajanand Swami and his closest disciples/successors. Sahajanand Swami was the founder of the Swaminarayan tradition and is regarded as an incarnation of Vishnu by his followers. They do indeed worship him as God, referring to him as 'Bhagavan Swaminarayan', and their chief mantra is 'Swami Narayan'. They consider themselves a Vaishnava sampradaya and, if I remember correctly, claim descent from the Ramanandis and originally from Ramanujacharya.
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