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Post by dreamtime on Sept 6, 2008 2:02:51 GMT -6
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Post by dreamtime on Sept 6, 2008 2:20:25 GMT -6
>>> But the graves of the ancient hunter-gatherers are strikingly uniform, with little or no size differences and little or no grave wealth.<<< It could just be that the hunter-gatherers were not so ritualistic like in the case of agricultural societies. In this way, simply because the graves were uniforms that information in itself can't be accepted as the major “factor” as evidence of non-social differences.... For example, for the hunter-gatherers, death could seemed a natural phenomena, which all had to face as a singular fate. In other words, they maybe not so concerned about the next life and consequently no much rituals, unlikely in the case of other social groups. In whether way, I still stand for the idea that there was not human society without some sort of social structures, for even within animal society, one can, without efforts, witness social hierarchy. Here is something from your article: Hunter-gatherer societies also tend to have non-hierarchical, egalitarian social structures. However, this is usually only the case in the more mobile societies, which generally are not able to store surplus food. Thus, full-time leaders, bureaucrats, or artisans are rarely supported by these societies. Others, such as the Haida of present-day British Columbia, lived in such a rich environment that they could remain sedentary, like many other Native Americans of the Pacific Northwest coast. These groups demonstrate more hierarchical social organization. www.answers.com/topic/hunter-gatherer Maybe its because we became dissconnected from the Tao so we started identifing ourselves more with physical reality and so making our bodies seem more important Almost all contemporary hunter-gatherers show a striking absence of any of the characteristics that we associate with social inequality. The anthropologist James Woodburn speaks of the "profound egalitarianism" of immediate-return foraging peoples and emphasises that no other way of human life "permits so great an emphasis on equality." (6) Foraging peoples are also strikingly democratic. Most societies do operate with a leader of some kind, but their power is usually very limited, and they can easily be deposed if the rest of the group aren't happy with their leadership. People don't seek to be leaders - in fact if anybody does show signs of a desire for power and wealth they are usually barred from consideration as leaders. And even when a person becomes a leader, they don't have the right to make decisions on their own. Decisions are made in co-operation with other respected members of the group. In prehistoric societies there were no status differences between individuals either. For archaeologists, the most obvious signs of social inequality are differences in graves, in terms of size, position and the goods which are placed inside them. Later agricultural societies have larger, more central graves for more "important" people, which also have a lot more possessions inside them. Men generally have more "important" graves than women. Maybe its because we became dissconnected from the Tao so we started identifing ourselves more with physical reality and so making our bodies seem more important and so this is why the graves of argicultural peoples are more materialistic compared to the ancient hunter-gatherer peoples, as he says " In Taoist terms, whereas the earliest human beings followed the Way of Heaven and were a part of the natural harmony of the universe, later human beings became separated from the Tao, and became selfish and calculating.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2008 14:31:51 GMT -6
Thanks for the links. One of the reasons why I insist on the idea that humans always had some sort of social organization is based on the Vedic perspectives that humans have lived on this planet since about 2 billion years ago, or more. Moreover, the universe has its on time, which runs independent from the activities of this planet and controls the eternal cycle of presence and absence of life on Earth and other planets. Here is something interesting: Human Devolution By Michael A. Cremo"The question of human origins has always been a hot topic among philosophers and scientists. Today, most of them accept the Darwinian account that humans like us came into existence about 100,000 years ago, having evolved from more apelike ancestors. But the Vedic literature gives us another account of human origins. I call this account human devolution. To put it in its most simple terms, we do not evolve up from matter but devolve, or come down, from spirit. In this article, I want to show how this Vedic concept of human devolution can be presented to those who are not very familiar with the Vedic literature.
"The human devolution process, the process by which conscious selves enter human bodies on earth, has been going on for a very long time. According to the Puranas, or histories, humans like us have existed on earth for vast periods of cyclical time. The basic unit of this cyclical time is the day of Brahma, which lasts for 4.32 billion years. The day of Brahma is followed by a night of Brahma, which also lasts for 4.32 billion years. The days follow the nights endlessly in succession. During the days of Brahma, life, including human life, is manifest, and during the nights it is not manifest. According to the Puranic cosmological calendar, the current day of Brahma began about 2 billion years ago. One of the forefathers of humankind, Svayambhuva Manu ruled during that time, and the Bhagavata Purana (Shrimad Bhagavatam 6.4.1) tells us: “The . . . human beings . . . were created during the reign of Svayambhuva Manu.”
Therefore, a Vedic archeologist might expect to find evidence for a human presence going that far back in time.
In our book Forbidden Archeology, my coauthor Richard L. Thompson (Sadaputa Dasa) and I documented extensive evidence, in the form of human skeletons, human footprints, and human artifacts, showing that humans like ourselves have inhabited the earth for hundreds of millions of years, just as the Puranas tell us. This evidence is not very well known because of a process of knowledge filtration that operates in the scientific world. Evidence that contradicts the Darwinian theory of human evolution is set aside, ignored, and eventually forgotten."www.grahamhancock.com/forum/MACremo1.php
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Post by dreamtime on Sept 6, 2008 20:53:33 GMT -6
The thing that strikes me the most is how the cosmology precessional time cycles is repeated over and over again in the ancients texts .
HARI>>The basic unit of this cyclical time is the day of Brahma, which lasts for 4.32 billion years. The day of Brahma is followed by a night of Brahma, which also lasts for 4.32 billion years........>> According to the Puranic cosmological calendar, the current day of Brahma began about 2 billion years ago
this from old precessional calculations which are very close to modern calculation but are out by about 120 years now. 4320-the number of years required for the equinoctial sun to complete a shift of 60 degress i.e two zodiacal constellations. Now i find it very interesting that if you times 4320 by 100 you 432,000, which is supposed to be the age of kali.
In Mayan long count calendar. The numerals necessary for calculating precession are found there in these formulae: 1 katun=7200 days; 1 tun=360 days; 2 tuns=720 dyas; 5 baktuns= 720,000 days; 5 katuns=36,000 days; 6 katuns=43,200 days; 6 tuns=2160 days; 15 katuns=2,160,000 days most of the pre-eminent numbers in the codes are 72. To this is frequently added 36, making 108, and it is permissible to multiply 108 by 100 to get 10,800 or to divide it by 2 to get 54, which may be multiplied by 10 and expressed as 540( or as 54,000 or 540,000....so.. so, also highly significant is 2160( 30 degree movement) which is sometimes multiplied by 10 and by factors of 10 to give 216,000...2,160,000...and sometimes by 2 to give 4320, or 43,200 or 432,000...4,320,000 ad infinition.
I noticed that in astronomy they say our sun According to Schroder and Smith, when the Sun becomes a red giant star 7.59 billion years, it will start to lose mass quickly. By the time it reaches its largest radius, 256 times its current size, it will be down to only 67% of its current mass.
So we have to be careful here as to what really the puranic calander is getting at, by the persons translation of the text it would seem Humans only have another 2 billions left, but by the latest science calculation the earth and our sun still have an extra 5 billion on top of the puranic's version. The author of this text could be implying precessional time cycles of the earths movements, It says >>According to the Puranic cosmological calendar, the current day of Brahma began about 2 billion years ago... the earth is at least 4.6 billion years old and a Kalpa i read was 4.32 billion years, which is only 280 million years out of our modern estimates,] But its more likely we are heading into a new Kalpa, as it has already been 4.6 billion years, maybe thats what the mayan 2012 is about. The 8.64 billion years that mark a full day-and-night cycle in Brahma’s life is about half the modern estimate for the age of the universe. The ancient Hindus believed that each Brahma day and each Brahma night lasted a kalpa, 4.32 billion years, with 72,000 kalpas equaling a Brahma century, 311,040 billion years in all. That the Hindus could conceive of the universe in terms of billions.
Looks like the ancient astronomers were well up to the task of calculating.
HARI>>>In our book Forbidden Archeology, my coauthor Richard L. Thompson (Sadaputa Dasa) and I documented extensive evidence, in the form of human skeletons, human footprints, and human artifacts, showing that humans like ourselves have inhabited the earth for hundreds of millions of years, just as the Puranas tell us. This evidence is not very well known because of a process of knowledge filtration that operates in the scientific world. Evidence that contradicts the Darwinian theory of human evolution is set aside, ignored, and eventually forgotten."
I'm studying 1st year geology at canterbury university. If they were there the geological processes of the earth would have turned the remnants of there civilisation to dust, as with in geology they rarely find fossils in precambrian era rocks (600 million years), Even mountains only have life spans of about 150 million years, as they are always beings eroded down and subducted back into the Mantle for recycling, so it would be very hard finding such remnants
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Post by dreamtime on Sept 6, 2008 21:11:44 GMT -6
>>> But the graves of the ancient hunter-gatherers are strikingly uniform, with little or no size differences and little or no grave wealth.<<< It could just be that the hunter-gatherers were not so ritualistic like in the case of agricultural societies. In this way, simply because the graves were uniforms that information in itself can't be accepted as the major “factor” as evidence of non-social differences.... For example, for the hunter-gatherers, death could seemed a natural phenomena, which all had to face as a singular fate. In other words, they maybe not so concerned about the next life and consequently no much rituals, unlikely in the case of other social groups. In whether way, I still stand for the idea that there was not human society without some sort of social structures, for even within animal society, one can, without efforts, witness social hierarchy. Here is something from your article: Hunter-gatherer societies also tend to have non-hierarchical, egalitarian social structures. However, this is usually only the case in the more mobile societies, which generally are not able to store surplus food. Thus, full-time leaders, bureaucrats, or artisans are rarely supported by these societies. Others, such as the Haida of present-day British Columbia, lived in such a rich environment that they could remain sedentary, like many other Native Americans of the Pacific Northwest coast. These groups demonstrate more hierarchical social organization. www.answers.com/topic/hunter-gatherer Further, according to the scriptures, there is no hierarchy at all inherent in the varna system. All parts are of equal importance and equal worth. A good example is to imagine a human body. The brain which thinks, plans and guides represents the Brahmin caste. The hands and arms which fight, protect and work represent the kshetriya caste. The stomach which serves as the source of energy and “transactions” represents the vaishya caste, and the legs/feet which do the necessary running around in the service of the rest of the body represent the shudra caste. No one can say the brain is better than the legs or that hands are superior to feet. Each is equally important for the overall functioning of the body system. They just serve different roles. " Look at Bhagwan Ram and Bhagwan Krishna. Both show the example of taking their food from even people of the lowest caste and going to the homes of the lower caste people. It is devotion, purity and commitment which make us great or small, not our caste. (source: The Caste system - By Swami Chidanand Saraswatiji - India Heritage Research Foundation).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2008 14:10:50 GMT -6
>>>Further, according to the scriptures, there is no hierarchy at all inherent in the varna system. All parts are of equal importance and equal worth. A good example is to imagine a human body. The brain which thinks, plans and guides represents the Brahmin caste. The hands and arms which fight, protect and work represent the kshetriya caste. The stomach which serves as the source of energy and “transactions” represents the vaishya caste, and the legs/feet which do the necessary running around in the service of the rest of the body represent the shudra caste. No one can say the brain is better than the legs or that hands are superior to feet. Each is equally important for the overall functioning of the body system. They just serve different roles. " Look at Bhagwan Ram and Bhagwan Krishna. Both show the example of taking their food from even people of the lowest caste and going to the homes of the lower caste people. It is devotion, purity and commitment which make us great or small, not our caste. (source: The Caste system - By Swami Chidanand Saraswatiji - India Heritage Research Foundation).<<<
The problem in the above statement is that the Swami is simply qualifying the caste-system, based on his spiritual perspectives. In other words, the head is on the top and consequently dictates all the actions taken by other parts of the body, thus it is a clear hierarchic system. Moreover, the Swami's argument that "according to the scriptures, there is no hierarchy at all inherent in the varna system". It is OK, but I would not take it literally. Here is something: "Vedic tribal societies and kingdoms were built on hierarchies and various roles and responsibilities were assigned to various groups of people in the society. These roles and responsibilities were (mostly) hereditary. In this scheme, it was mostly Brahmins (brāhmaṇa) who possessed religious and ritual superiority. The varna of a newborn child was determined by that of his father just as caste is. The boys of the Brahmin, Kshatriya and Vaisyha varnas undergo an initiation ceremony, Upanayana, which confirms their varna status. Varna is functional hierarchy system proposed by the post-Rigvedic Yajurveda and Brahmana texts to organize society. Later on, Indian society was organized, in addition, according to Jatis. The oldest mention of the varna system is in the Purusha sukta of Rigveda 10.90.12 which states: "The Brahmana was the mouth of the purusha, his two arms were made into the Rajanya, his two thighs were the Vaishya, and from his two feet the Shudra was born". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_in_Hinduism#Cyclical_theory_of_history
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Post by dreamtime on Sept 8, 2008 23:35:26 GMT -6
No Religious Sanction in Hindu Scriptures:
Lord Krishna as saying, in response to the question— "How is Varna (social order) determined?"
"Birth is not the cause, my friend; it is virtues which are the cause of auspiciousness. Even a candala observing the vow is considered a brahmana by the gods."
Lord Krishna wood 1780.
"Birth is not the cause, my friend; it is virtues which are the cause of auspiciousness.
"I am the Self seated in the heart of all creatures. I am the beginning, the middle and the very end of all beings".
The Bhagavad Gita has influenced great Americans from Henry David Thoreau to J R Oppenheimer.
Listen to The Bhagavad Gita podcast - By Michael Scherer - americanphonic.com.
***
Coming back to the caste system, varna was so conferred on an individual NOT on the basis of his parentage. As stated:
In the Bhagavad Gita, Ch.4, Verse 13:
The Lotus-Eyed God. Keshava, One Who Has Long, Black Matted Locks. Krishna, Dark-Complexioned Lord says:
guna karma vibhagashah
"The fourfold caste has been created by Me according to the differentiation of Guna (attributes) and Karma;" Bhagavad Gita Ch. 18, V.41:
A most forceful of all is Sri Krishna's statement:
"The devotees of the Lord are not Shudras; Shudras are they who have no faith in the Lord whichever be their caste. A wise man should not slight even an outcaste if he is devoted to the Lord; he who looks down on him will fall into hell." - Mahabharata
(source: The World's Religions - By Huston Smith p. 80).
"There is no superior caste. The Universe is the work of the Immense Being. The beings created by him were only divided into castes according to their aptitude." - Mahabharata, Shanti Parva, 188 "Of Brahmanas, Kshtriyas and Vaishyas, as also the Sudras, O Arjuna, the duties are distributed according to the qualities born of their own nature." - Bhagavad Gita
"All mankind is one family." (Hitopadesh; Subhashita Ratna Bhandagare).
Says the Mahabharata, in the famous dialogue between Yudhishthira and the Yaksha:
“A man does not become a Brahman by the mere fact of his birth, not even by the acquisition of Vedic scholarship; it is good character alone that can make one a Brahman. He will be worse than a Shudra if his conduct is not in conformity with the rules of good behavior.”
Manu sums up their relative status and functions in society in the following verse:
“The Brahman acquires his status by his knowledge, the Kshatriya by his martial vigor; the Vaishya by wealth; and the Shudra by birth alone.”
Each one has his place and function determined ‘by his own nature’, and by following this alone does one fulfill himself best: Sve sve karmanyabhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah, declares the Bhagavad Gita. Further, ‘One ought not to give up work which is suited to one’s own nature, though it may have its imperfections; for all human endeavors are beset with limitations, even as fire is enveloped by smoke. ‘I follow my Dharma’, says Yuddhisthira, even in his exile, ‘not because I see immediate profit in it, but because virtue is to be practiced, for its own sake, under all circumstances.’
(source: Our Heritage and Its Significance - By Shripad Rama Sharma p.79-80).
Shrimad Valmiki Ramayan also says whosoever including sudra reads it will achieve greatness and get rid of all sins. Valmiki Ramayana: 1.1.98-100) Thus, Vedas, Ramayana and Gita confer authority on sudras to possess and read these.
(source: Caste and Bhagawad Gita - By Ambassador O P Gupta).
Watch video - Brahmins in India have become a minority
The earlier portions of the Rig Veda do not refer to any divisions of the people on the basis of caste. The term varna did not mean caste but class. In the Mahabharata (12. 188), the opinion is repeated that all creation is God's creation, and that no one is high or low by birth. It is only by samskara (purification, training) that one becomes a Brahmin:
janmana jayate shudrah samskarairdvija uchyate - All are born Shudras, it is only through certain rites or inner training that one becomes a Brahmin or twice-born.
(source: Hinduism: Its Contribution to Science and Civilization - By Prabhakar Machwe p. 59 - 60).
"Hinduism is a religion without dogma. Since its origin, Hindu society has been built on rational bases by sages who sought to comprehend man's nature and role in creation as a whole. They organized the society in such a way as to facilitate the development of each human being, taking into account his inner nature and the reasons for his existence, since for the Hindus the world is not merely the result of a series of chances but the realization of a divine plan in which all aspects are interconnected. Thus, Hindu society is the result of an attempt to situate man in the plan of creation."
(source: Alain Danielou - Virtue, Success, Pleasure, Liberation p. 154-155)
'Historically, many of the revered rishis were Dalits. The authors of the Ramayana and Mahabharata, Maharishis Valmiki and Vyas respectively, were Dalits. The narrator of the Puranas, Soot Maharishi, was a Dalit...We need to make the people realise that discrimination is not sanctioned by religion.'
Varna was conferred on the basis of the intrinsic nature of an individual, which is a combination of three gunas (qualities) sattva, rajas, and tamas.
The following example illustrate that the Varna System of the Vedas was based upon one's aptitude and natural capabilities.
Sage Vyasa, a Brahmin sage and the most revered author of the major Hindu scriptures, was the son of Satyavati, a low caste woman. Vyasa's father, Sage Parasara, had fallen in love with Satyavati, a fisherwoman, and had married her. Vyasa's deep knowledge of the Vedas later determined the caste of Vyasa as Brahmin sage, and not his birth to a low caste-woman.
Sage Valmiki, the celebrated author of of the epic, Ramayana, was a low caste hunter. He came to be known as a Brahmin sage on the basis of his profound knowledge of the scriptures and his authorship of the Ramayana.
Sage Aitareya, who wrote the Aitareya Upanishad and was born of a Shudra woman.
Rishi Parashar, the famous law-giver was the son of a Chandala, the lowest of the Sudras.
Rishi Vasishta was the son of a prostitute, but honored as a sage.
Sage Vidura, a Brahmin sage who gave religious instruction to Kind Dhritarashtra, was born to a low caste woman servant of the palace. His caste as a Brahmin sage was determined on the basis of his wisdom and knowledge of Dharma Shastras (scriptures).
The Kauravas and Pandavas were the descendants of Satyavati, a low caste fisher-woman, and the sons of Sage Vyasa. Vyasa's father was the Brahmin Sage Parasara, the grandson of Sage Vasishtha. In spite of this mixed heredity, the Kauravas and Pandavas were known as Kshatriyas on the basis of their occupation.
Chandragupta Maurya was from the Muria tribe, which used to collect peacock (mor) feathers; Samrat Ashok was the son of a daasi.
Saint Thiruvalluvar who wrote Thirukural was only a weaver. Other saints were adored including Kabir, Sura Dasa, Ram Dasa and Tukaram came from the humblest class of Hindu society.
***
For more refer to Lower caste Hindu Saints - wikipedia.org. Watch video - Brahmins in India have become a minority
In the Mahabharata, Yudhishthira defines a Brahmin as one who is truthful, forgiving, and kind.
"a Sudra is not a Sudra by birth alone-nor a Brahmana is Brahmana by birth alone. He, it is said by the wise, in whom are seen those virtues is a Brahmana. And people term him a Sudra in whom those qualities do not exist, even though he be a Brahmana by birth. "
He clearly points out that a Brahmin is not a Brahmin just because he is born in a Brahmin family, nor is a Shudra a Shudra because his parents are Shudras.
"it is asserted by the wise, in whom are seen truth, charity, forgiveness, good conduct, benevolence, observance of rites of his order and mercy is a Brahmana."
" Therefore, those that are wise have asserted that character is the chief essential requisite. "Whosoever now conforms to the rules of pure and virtuous conduct, him have I, ere now, designated as a Brahmana."
The author of one of the hymns of the Rig Veda says:
" I am a composer of hymns, my father is a physician, my mother grinds corn on a stone. We are all engaged in different occupations."
The Adi Shankara had stated that by birth every human being is a Shudra. It is by education and upbringing that he or she becomes ‘twice born’, that is, a Dwija.
The Upanishads clearly states that the soul, whether of a Brahmin or a Chandal, is divine.
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A Comprehensive Look: Pro and Cons of The Caste System
Hinduism believes in "Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam" (the world is one family - an ancient Vedic term).
Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948) Was among India's most fervent nationalists, fighting for Indian independence from British rule. Gandhi was a staunch and devout Hindu and he proclaimed it proudly:
"I am a Hindu because it is Hinduism which makes the world worth living." (source: Young India 1-12-26).
He said that the caste system or varnashrama is "inherent in human nature, and Hinduism has simply made a science of it."
He defended the "much-maligned Brahman" and entertains " not a shadow of doubt" that "if Brahmanism does not revive, Hinduism will perish".
"Hinduism insists on the brotherhood of not only all mankind but of all that lives."
(source: Hindu Dharma - M. K. Gandhi p. 7-374 and Harijan 28-3-1936).
Swami Vivekananda (1863-1902) was the foremost disciple of Ramakrishna and a world spokesperson for Vedanta. India's first spiritual and cultural ambassador to the West, came to represent the religions of India at the World Parliament of Religions, held at Chicago in connection with the World's Fair (Columbian Exposition) of 1893. His Chicago speech is uniquely Vedantic. Jawaharlal Nehru refers to this universal dimension of Vivekananda in his Discovery of India. “Rooted in the past, and full of pride in India’s heritage, Vivekananda was yet modern in his approach to life’s problems, and was a kind of bridge between the past of India and her present.”
He said:
"Caste is a plan we want to follow- - .There is no country in the world without caste. The plan in India is to make everybody a Brahmin, the Brahmin being the ideal of humanity. Indian caste is better than the caste that prevails which prevails in Europe or America."
(source: The Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda Kolkata,1985, Vol V, pp 215).
Sir Rustom Pestonji Masani (1876 - ) a Parsi, distinguished himself when he was elected as the first Indian national to become Municipal Commissioner of Mumbai. Author of Zoroastrianism: the religion of the good life he points out:
“The seers of the early Vedic period know nothing of caste. Delve as much as one may into the literature of the period, one discovers only classes not castes. …the conception of social segregation and untouchability was repugnant to the genius of the people who sought unity in variety and dissolved variety in unity. Each class was regarded as an integral part of the fabric of society. Each submitted cheerfully to the special functions and duties assigned to it. Even the Sudra appears to have been content with his mission in life; and there were no agitators abroad to sow in the minds of the proletariat the seeds of discontent. There appeared to have been a tacit understanding that different classes of individuals stood at different stages of evolution and that, therefore, the duties, modes of life, and rules of conduct applicable and helpful to each must necessarily differ. The differentiation was, however, regarded only as a means to an end, not an end in itself. It assigned to each individual his due position in the social order; it regulated his relation with other members of the community, and provided means for his orderly development, eliminating possibilities of a clash of interests between master and servant, landlord and tenant, capital and labor, state and subject.”
"According to Hindu philosophy divine energy manifests itself in different degrees according to the preponderance in each person of one or other of the three gunas, or fundamental qualities, which make up the prakriti or nature, of an individual. These gunas are sattva, rajas and tamas. It follows, therefore, that for his own salvation as well as for social efficiency an individual should be allowed to develop along the lines best suited to his natural endowments and that he on his part should perform the duties assigned to him in accordance with the predominant quality of the strand in his nature. The well-known episode of Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita is a typical illustration of this philosophy of life. Dismayed, he refuses to fight; but Lord Krishna, the preacher, prevails upon him to discharge the duty proper to his Kshatriya caste."
"There is nothing, however, in the whole body of Sanskrit literature to show that the caste system was deliberately devised as a means to attain the coveted end of realizing the divine within man. A remarkable and almost unique feature of Hindu culture is the process of minute analysis and synthesis to which it subjects from time to time the phenomena which leave their impress upon the senses and the mind and the unchangeable soul. Such an exposition has helped succeeding generations to grasp the significance of the philosophic doctrines underlying the social and religious systems of a race excelling in spiritual speculations and metaphysical subtleties."
"According to the Rig Veda hymn, the different classes sprang from the four limbs of the Creator. It was meant to show that the four classes stood in relation to the social organization in the same relation as the different organs of the Primordial Man to his body. Together they had to function to give vitality to the body politic. There was nothing in that account to warrant the assumption, that the order in which the four groups were mentioned, or that the particular limbs specified as their origin, marked their social status."
"A person’s worth is determined by his knowledge and capacity and the inherent qualities which mark his conduct in life. “The four fold division of castes’ says the Creator in the Bhagavad Gita, “was created by me according to the apportionment of qualities and duties.” “Not birth, not sacrament, not learning, make one dvija (twice-born), but righteous conduct alone causes it.” “Be he a Sudra or a member of any other class, says the Lord in the same epic, “he that serves as a raft on a raftless current , or helps to ford the unfordable, deserves respect in everyway.”
(source: Legacy of India - edited by G T Garratt - Oxford At the Clarendon Press p. 132 - 140).
Integration of various factors
This division of men into four types, the teacher, the warrior, the merchant and the laborer, is based on sound psychology, ethics, biology and economics. Some men are intellectually by temperament, some are active, some acquisitive and others undefined, none of these. To each are assigned the task true to its type, in conformity with its inherent temperament, svadharma. All together formed an organic whole. Under an arrangement such as this, there is conservation of social energies; there is no necessity of trial and error method. All are not equally endowed with equal physical and mental capacities, but every one should be given an opportunity for putting to use the faculties with which he has been endowed. Man should be treated as man, and not as an economic hand. Danger of exploitation of one group by another can be eliminated. Social harmony and conscious co-operation were made the chief characteristics of human association. The ideal was to evolve a functional and not an acquisitive society. It is this varna dharma that has been the bulwark of Indian civilization and saved it from wreckage of time. Each group had its duties and its own rewards or compensation. The laborer had to work, but he was to be looked after as a younger member of a family. The man of desire, the vaishya, was to acquire wealth; power and authority was vested in the kshatriya, while all these were to honor the teacher, to obey his religious and spiritual injunctions and accept his guidance. The teacher was to be supported by the gifts of the other three groups.
It was with the aid of this mechanism that India sought to solve her racial problem. The Aryans did not resort to the short cut of annihilating the primitive people with whom they came into contact as the European races have done whenever they have occupied lands in America, Asia, Africa and Australia, but they gave them a place in their body-politic, assigning to them the task befitting their intelligence and subordinate status. Observant scholars of the West have not failed to notice the spiritual significance of the varna-ashrama-dharma and given it its due praise.
Writing of this varna-ashrama-dharma, Auguste Comte (1798-1857) the great French sociologist, wrote in his book Système de philosophie positive or Positive Society:
“No institution has ever shown itself more adopted to honor, ability to various kinds than this polytheistic organization…In a social view, the virtues of the system are not less conspicuous. Politically, its chief attribute was stability…As to the influence on mortals, this system was favorable to personal morality, and yet more to domestic, for the spirit of caste was a mere extension of the family spirit….As to social morals, the system was evidently favorable to respect for age and homage to ancestors.”
These principles formed the background of the Indian social organization; on them was built a superstructure of social institution, such as education, marriage, family and the state.
It was realized by the Indian sociologists that both the individual and the group could find self-expression and fulfillment only in and through a complex of social institutions, based on dharma, co-operation, mutual aid, integration, synthesis, the vision of the whole.
Balance, orderly progress of individual and group, harmonious relationship between both, was the ideal aimed at by the Indian sociologist. (source: India: A synthesis of cultures – by Kewal Motwani p 120 -128).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2008 0:29:23 GMT -6
Here is what I found substancial in your post:
Manu sums up their relative status and functions in society in the following verse:
“The Brahman acquires his status by his knowledge, the Kshatriya by his martial vigor; the Vaishya by wealth; and the Shudra by birth alone.”
Each one has his place and function determined ‘by his own nature’, and by following this alone does one fulfill himself best: Sve sve karmanyabhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah, declares the Bhagavad Gita. Further, ‘One ought not to give up work which is suited to one’s own nature, though it may have its imperfections; for all human endeavors are beset with limitations, even as fire is enveloped by smoke. ‘I follow my Dharma’, says Yuddhisthira, even in his exile, ‘not because I see immediate profit in it, but because virtue is to be practiced, for its own sake, under all circumstances.’
(source: Our Heritage and Its Significance - By Shripad Rama Sharma p.79-80).
Shrimad Valmiki Ramayan also says whosoever including sudra reads it will achieve greatness and get rid of all sins. Valmiki Ramayana: 1.1.98-100) Thus, Vedas, Ramayana and Gita confer authority on sudras to possess and read these.
(source: Caste and Bhagawad Gita - By Ambassador O P Gupta).
Integration of various factors
This division of men into four types, the teacher, the warrior, the merchant and the laborer, is based on sound psychology, ethics, biology and economics. Some men are intellectually by temperament, some are active, some acquisitive and others undefined, none of these. To each are assigned the task true to its type, in conformity with its inherent temperament, svadharma. All together formed an organic whole. Under an arrangement such as this, there is conservation of social energies; there is no necessity of trial and error method. All are not equally endowed with equal physical and mental capacities, but every one should be given an opportunity for putting to use the faculties with which he has been endowed. Man should be treated as man, and not as an economic hand. Danger of exploitation of one group by another can be eliminated. Social harmony and conscious co-operation were made the chief characteristics of human association. The ideal was to evolve a functional and not an acquisitive society. It is this varna dharma that has been the bulwark of Indian civilization and saved it from wreckage of time. Each group had its duties and its own rewards or compensation. The laborer had to work, but he was to be looked after as a younger member of a family. The man of desire, the vaishya, was to acquire wealth; power and authority was vested in the kshatriya, while all these were to honor the teacher, to obey his religious and spiritual injunctions and accept his guidance. The teacher was to be supported by the gifts of the other three groups.
It was with the aid of this mechanism that India sought to solve her racial problem. The Aryans did not resort to the short cut of annihilating the primitive people with whom they came into contact as the European races have done whenever they have occupied lands in America, Asia, Africa and Australia, but they gave them a place in their body-politic, assigning to them the task befitting their intelligence and subordinate status. Observant scholars of the West have not failed to notice the spiritual significance of the varna-ashrama-dharma and given it its due praise.
Writing of this varna-ashrama-dharma, Auguste Comte (1798-1857) the great French sociologist, wrote in his book Système de philosophie positive or Positive Society:
“No institution has ever shown itself more adopted to honor, ability to various kinds than this polytheistic organization…In a social view, the virtues of the system are not less conspicuous. Politically, its chief attribute was stability…As to the influence on mortals, this system was favorable to personal morality, and yet more to domestic, for the spirit of caste was a mere extension of the family spirit….As to social morals, the system was evidently favorable to respect for age and homage to ancestors.”
These principles formed the background of the Indian social organization; on them was built a superstructure of social institution, such as education, marriage, family and the state.
It was realized by the Indian sociologists that both the individual and the group could find self-expression and fulfillment only in and through a complex of social institutions, based on dharma, co-operation, mutual aid, integration, synthesis, the vision of the whole.
Balance, orderly progress of individual and group, harmonious relationship between both, was the ideal aimed at by the Indian sociologist. (source: India: A synthesis of cultures – by Kewal Motwani p 120 -128).
All the rest in your post, for example, sudra saints , are but rare historical records, where higher forces are bending the rules for the achievement of a higher purpose. Those saints were all out of the ordinary. In most cases, one is bound by the previous Karma, thus Varna is a direct reflection of the individual's past. However, I would add that in this age of interracial mixing, it becomes rather harder to actually classify an individual based on birth. Which probably is one of the major problem for the perpetuation of peace and order, nowadays.
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