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Post by gerard on Sept 11, 2010 13:14:24 GMT -6
Look at that thread under Books called Space-Time and Beyond to get a sense of what I mean. I should perhaps move that to the Physics and CV section. I took a look at it then and now again, and it still looks like such an extreme over-simplification as to make no sense at all. As I, as a polder-boy who is not so razzle-dazzled as you by the Hawkings of this world, see no real need to apply that kind of language to mystic experience I have to quote Boswell: After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeley's ingenious sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it -- "I refute it thus." Boswell: Life of Samuel Johnson (1791)
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Post by Nitaidas on Sept 11, 2010 15:06:40 GMT -6
Look at that thread under Books called Space-Time and Beyond to get a sense of what I mean. I should perhaps move that to the Physics and CV section. I took a look at it then and now again, and it still looks like such an extreme over-simplification as to make no sense at all. As I, as a polder-boy who is not so razzle-dazzled as you by the Hawkings of this world, see no real need to apply that kind of language to mystic experience I have to quote Boswell: After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeley's ingenious sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it -- "I refute it thus." Boswell: Life of Samuel Johnson (1791) Sorry. I just don't think we can sit around and ignore the advancements of science, especially in physics and biology. That book I posted is just meant to be a simplified introduction to some of the difficult concepts. The image on each page is supported by citations and passages from various scientific articles in support of the ideas illustrated there. It came out in 1977, I believe, so it is very dated, but still not without merit. I have presented only the first few pages. Perhaps if there is an interest I will put more up. The images are great, i think, for making these difficult ideas imaginable. If that book is too easy for you I recommend recommend The Non-local Universe: the New Physics and Matters of teh Mind by Robert Nadeau and Menas Kafatos (1999). That is one that I am studying at present, as is our friend and member Subrataji. It makes a strong argument against the dualism (spirit/matter, mind/body) we have been using to interpret the world. Subrataji and I are both trying to understand how the new physics might impact CV and what resources CV might have to make the new physics more livable. Cute story, but I don't think it applies here very well. Science will not go away with a kick.
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Post by gerard on Sept 12, 2010 7:53:51 GMT -6
Thanks for the tip, but I have already made my – short - round of the New Physics, with all the muons and gluons, black holes and superluminal loopholes. Very interesting of course as I far as I could understand it and necessary to distance oneself from the, indeed, outdated reductionist Old Physics but as far as theology/philosophy goes it doesn’t deliver insights into the hidden, deep endeavours and fears of human beings. It takes (the language of) mythology and art to do that. I’m afraid you’ll just end up with a very shallow advaitic worldview (called ‘holistic’ in the New Physics). But of course all the best wishes in your attempts to free vaisnavism from its Indianness. I sincerely hope you’ll succeed.
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Post by Nitaidas on Sept 14, 2010 12:39:38 GMT -6
Thanks for the tip, but I have already made my – short - round of the New Physics, with all the muons and gluons, black holes and superluminal loopholes. Very interesting of course as I far as I could understand it and necessary to distance oneself from the, indeed, outdated reductionist Old Physics but as far as theology/philosophy goes it doesn’t deliver insights into the hidden, deep endeavours and fears of human beings. It takes (the language of) mythology and art to do that. I’m afraid you’ll just end up with a very shallow advaitic worldview (called ‘holistic’ in the New Physics). But of course all the best wishes in your attempts to free vaisnavism from its Indianness. I sincerely hope you’ll succeed. So just a short-round is all it deserves? I think this stuff is extraordinarily exciting. It is revealing some of the deep secrets of the universe, its beginnings, and possible futures. It is also not the sort of thing one can study briefly. Neither is CV. Accordingly, I have set myself a program of study in which I will, over the next few years, read the complete Sandarabhas of Sri Jiva and at the same time study and ponder the new theories and discoveries of physics and biology. I am especially fascinated by consciousness studies. Susan Blackmore's book on the subject is a good starting place. I don't know about you, but I started this whole process years ago as a search for truth. it led me to CV, but I am still searching. Satyam param dhImahi " Let us meditate on the highest truth." I take that more seriously than some, I suppose, and I don't get to dictate what kind of truth I want or would like to have. If the New Physics or biology finds that those "deep endeavors and fears" are the result of chemical interactions in the brain, then the ramifications of that have to be considered. Everything needs evidence and a lot depends on what one is willing to accept as evidence. One cannot accept the mystics to the exclusion of the physicists. I don't think I will arrive at a shallow advaitism. It will be more like a bhedAdheda and it won't be shallow. I require evidence from every body. No one gets a free pass. One could argue, for instance, that Krsna is the same as gravity, since there is that meaning of Krsna from the root kRz meaning to draw or attract. Or, that Krsna is the name of that supercomputer that holds all our consciousnesses at the end of time that is postulated by the physicists who subscribe to the Anthropic Principle. That would be clever and maybe appealing to our Krsna-ite loyalties, but where is the evidence? But who knew gravity to be so important thousands of years ago or who envisioned computers way back then. One can invent fantasies like the Akashic record or spiritual planes all one wants but all that amounts to is a furthering of our ignorance. The idea that there are worm-holes that connect every point of the universe with every other point of the universe, an idea that has some scientific support, throughout time, might be relevant to this question. Given the choice between Akashic records and worm-holes, I would certainly favor the latter. Anyway, it is a line of study that cannot fail to be rewarding in a variety of ways. By the way, one of the fruits of my study of the Tattva-sandarbha which I restarted recently is the following verse: yaH zrIkRSNapadAmbhojabhajanaiAbhilASavAn| tenaiva dRzyatAmetadanyasmai zapatho'rpitaH||6|| This [book] is to be viewed only by one whose sole desire is to worship the lotus feet of Sri Krsna. A curse is offered to others. This verse always surprises and shocks me. So much for preaching! Maybe this is the way Sri Krsna Prem looked at his own writing. For the general public he wrote general things and he kept his ruminations and thoughts about Krsna to himself.
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Post by gerard on Sept 15, 2010 9:39:54 GMT -6
Yes, I started a search for truth years ago too. But I soon ran into all sorts of questions which were never answered by the swamis and yogis I met. Like, how do you recognize truth when you run into it? You seem to have to know truth before you can recognize it.
Same question with the search for the guru. The Gita says upadekṣyanti te jñānaṃ jñāninas tattvadarśinaḥ 4.34, they will teach you knowledge, those who have knowledge, who see the truth.
But which guru, which tattvadarśinas? The Gita tries to give an answer after Arjuna’s question in 2.54 with prajahāti yadā kāmān, when he abandons desire, etc but that is not a way to recognize somebody, that is just a description of an (aspiring) yogi who might be a dvaitin or an advaitin. They all look the same to me.
It seems you have to take a meta-position in regard to all gurus and then decide: That is the one for me! On what is that based? If you are capable of taking such a position and judge all available gurus, you don’t need a guru. Or a method or a religion. The answers to your search for truth are already given in the method you choose. An advaitin with his mantras will have an advaitic experience. A Zen-buddhist will experience the Nothingness with his methods. A Hare Krishna might get a glimpse of Krishna with his methods. The result is incorporated in the method, there seems to be no objectivity.
As for science you see that a physicist finds answers in physics, an astronomer in astronomy, a biologist in biology, a psychologist in psychology, etc. Is that coincidence? (By the way, I am not completely finished with my survey of science yet. I still want to take a look at the work of Ervin Laszlo.)
Most people say, I feel it, it is intuition, that is the way for me! Fine, but where does that feeling or intuition comes from? I think from a previous life (or it just might be some spontaneous bio-chemical reaction in your brain) but most likely I was some dumbass in my previous live so why would I be interested in feelings generated by that previous live. Do I have to be the same dumbass as before?
I’m just rambling on a bit, but what to do? Do we follow the Bhagavatam: parokṣa-vādā ṛṣayaḥ parokṣaṃ mama ca priyam (xi.21.32/35), the Vedic texts or their seers present their exposition in a hidden (or indirect or esoteric) way as such presentation is liked by Me. And do we just accept that those mysteries are hidden and remain hidden? Including the question; how to find a guru?
Or do we take Kierkegaard’s “leap of faith” right into Tillich’s “abyss without ground”?
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Post by Nitaidas on Sept 15, 2010 10:38:27 GMT -6
Yes, I started a search for truth years ago too. But I soon ran into all sorts of questions which were never answered by the swamis and yogis I met. Like, how do you recognize truth when you run into it? You seem to have to know truth before you can recognize it. This is the old hermeneutic circle, isn't it? How about just following the evidence? Truth must be established by evidence. Of course, determining what is evidence is sometimes a chore. But a lot depends on what you want in a guru. Some people expect an awful lot. When one looks at the descriptions in the CV texts, one sees that the guru need not necessarily be self-realized or siddha. One just needs someone more learned and experienced and sincere. I think people miss good opportunities to advance because they are looking for a guru who walks on water, or who talks with R and K, when really such people are very rare. Anyone who has properly received the mantras and who has practiced them, can be a good guru. It is a result of the mythologization of the guru. That is because they are all pretty much the same. Anyone of them will probably do, unless one of them is corrupt and there should be evidence of that. That is why one must test the guru for a year, according to CV texts. If one makes a mistake, all is not lost. Either steer clear of the guru so that one is not dragged down by him or her. Or, leave him and find a better one. Yes. This is true. One should decide where one wants to go and catch the appropriate ride. Some may take one along part of the way and others the whole way and others may take you in a completely opposite direction. One has to look at the evidence and favor the one with more of it. But they all fit together into a relatively cogent description of reality, except for the quantum gravity problem, of course. Tell me about Ervin? This is just obfuscation. it is not as mysterious as the sectarians would like us to believe. This is how they continue to control us, by convincing us that it is a secret and that you can only get it from one of them. it is just marketing in my opinion. The creation of scarcity in order to control others and make one's product more attractive. The institution of the guru is part of this as well. But there are things to be gained from a good guru. A hope, an aspiration, a method, and a possible raison d'etre. Sometimes we cannot give ourselves these. We need another to do it for us. Now I am just rambling. Anyway, good points, gerardji. Thanks for sharing them with us. In that case, one has a long fall ahead of one.
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Post by gerard on Sept 16, 2010 10:14:51 GMT -6
I think that there were things secret back in the days. Not as a marketing tool, but to protect the knowledge they had gained. Pearls before swine and all that.
I also believe that those Mystery Schools as they are called existed in Ephesus, Samothrace, Eleusís etc. And in India in Ellora and Elephanta for instance. Pythagoras probably visited both. They saw themselves as the custodians of the secrets of medicine, architecture, statescraft, mathemathics, astronomy and music. That knowledge belonged to the community, it was not a private affair, and that was the reason that betrayal of the secret knowledge was punishable by death. Freemasons still have that oath. That knowledge is encoded in scriptures like the Mahabharata and keeping it secret resonates in the above-mentioned verse of the Bhagavatam.
Those Mystery Schools had all sorts of degrees of initiation, probably in the Indian Mysteries the lowest degree was called Matsya, the second degree Kurma , the third Varaha and so on to higher levels of consciousness.
As Virgil led Dante through the tortuous passageways of the Inferno, so the Hierophant led the consciousness of the neophyte through the mysteries of the mundane sphere.
You had to qualify yourself for those schools and levels. Fire ordeals, water ordeals, artificially induced near-death-experiences. The last one is of course what we know as becoming a dvija. The Freemasons still have a very watered-down form of these initiation rites.
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Post by gerard on Sept 20, 2010 16:50:40 GMT -6
To illustrate how the first layer of the MBh might have originated just before the Mystery Schools of the previous post, this article:
Australian Aborigines the first astronomers
Friday, 17 September 2010 Agence France-Presse
SYDNEY: An Australian study has uncovered signs that the country's ancient Aborigines may have been the world's first stargazers, pre-dating Stonehenge and Egypt's pyramids by thousands of years.
Ray Norris said widespread and detailed knowledge of the stars had been passed down through the generations by Aborigines, whose history dates back tens of millennia, in traditional songs and stories.
"We know there's lots of stories about the sky: songs, legends, myths," said Norris, an astronomer for Australia's science agency, the Commonwealth Scientific and Research Organisation (CSIRO).
"We wondered how much further does it go than that. It turns out also people used the sky for navigation, time-keeping, to mark out the seasons, so it's very practical.
"People were nomadic so when Pleiades (the Seven Sisters star cluster) was up they would move to where the nuts and berries are. Another sign and it would be time to move to the rivers to fish for barramundi, and so on."
Norris, who has studied Aboriginal culture and historical accounts by white settlers, and made several trips to Arnhem Land in Australia's remote Outback, said his research also revealed more detailed astronomical thought.
"Clearly some thinker in the past has been sitting down in the bush, watching an eclipse and trying to figure out how it works," he said, giving one example.
"Those thoughts are then encoded in the songs and ceremonies. If you take a lunar eclipse, the story in Arnhem Land is it's the Sun Woman and Moon Man making love, and when they make love the body of one covers the other."
Norris is now searching for evidence that would put a date on Aboriginal astronomy, such as a rock-carving of a meteor strike or comet.
He is confident the Aborigines pre-dated European stargazers, including Britain's astronomy-linked Stonehenge, which is estimated at 3,100 BC, around the age of the Great Pyramid of Giza.
"We've established there is all this astronomy, what I don't know is how far back this goes. If it goes back 10,000 or 20,000 years, that makes (Aborigines) the world's first astronomers," he said.
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 27, 2019 17:28:06 GMT -6
I have decided to return to the topic of this thread and post a piece of the writing of Prabhupad Kanupriya Goswami, one of the real acaryas of the 20th century. I had a request for this book from someone recently. I used to sell them through Nitai's Bookstore, but we no longer have any copies to sell. I do have, however, a copy in my possession and I thought it might be a good idea to post a scan of parts of the book. It is one of his classic works. It is copyrighted and I encourage anyone interested in reading the whole work to try to purchase it from the addresses on the reverse side of the title page. If by chance someone is unable to acquire a print copy. Please inform me. The translation is not the greatest, though the main text was done by Jan Brzezinski (Jagat) a long time ago. I think someone "edited" Jan's work and made it more clunky and broken. Plus the Sanskrit and Bengali citations are a mess. Unreadable really. Some of the other parts of the book were not done by Jan. They will challenge your creative imaginations. Anyway, here it is. Jiver Svarup o Svadharmo Part 1Jiver Svarup o Svadharmo Part 2Jiver Svarup o Svadharmo Part 3
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 28, 2019 12:02:26 GMT -6
My thought was to do a new edition of this work (Jiver Svarup o Svadharmo), correcting and improving the English and the translation where it seems to stray from the original, fixing the citations so that they are identifiable, pronounceable, and traceable, etc. However, I think my efforts may be better directed towards working on Kanupriya Goswami's other masterpieces, specifically his Nama-cintamani series (three volumes) on the Holy Name. Those as far as I know have not been translated. Goswamiji is challenging to translate as are many of the other learned CV writers of the 20th cent (Rasika Mohana Vidyabhusana, Sundarananda Das, Radhagovinda Nath, etc) They tend to write in long, elaborate sentences representative of the long-standing Bengali habit of rhetorical flourish recognized as the Bengali "style" even in ancient Sanskrit texts on literary criticism. Anyway, it is worth the effort if we can make these classic CV writers who really knew and loved their tradition available in readable English. So keep an eye out for Goswamiji's Nama-cintamani in the coming few months.
If anyone else audits this site who knows Bengali or Sanskrit well enough to do readable and reliable translations of some of the other great Vaisnava writers (this, of course, automatically excludes any IGM writers unless they have come to their senses and gotten properly initiated in one of the authentic lineages) please take steps to add those translations to this site. There should be some places on the internet where the Caitanya tradition is authentically represented, few though they may be.
As I mentioned in a recent email to Steven Rosen, the Caitanya tradition in the West has been hijacked by a bunch of hyenas. Those of us who belong to the real tradition need to take steps to counteract that.
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on May 20, 2019 7:14:45 GMT -6
As I mentioned in a recent email to Steven Rosen, the Caitanya tradition in the West has been hijacked by a bunch of hyenas. Those of us who belong to the real tradition need to take steps to counteract that. I'm sure Steven Rosen was happy to hear it.
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on May 20, 2019 7:40:47 GMT -6
I have decided to return to the topic of this thread and post a piece of the writing of Prabhupad Kanupriya Goswami, one of the real acaryas of the 20th century. I had a request for this book from someone recently. I used to sell them through Nitai's Bookstore, but we no longer have any copies to sell. I do have, however, a copy in my possession and I thought it might be a good idea to post a scan of parts of the book. It is one of his classic works. It is copyrighted and I encourage anyone interested in reading the whole work to try to purchase it from the addresses on the reverse side of the title page. If by chance someone is unable to acquire a print copy. Please inform me. The translation is not the greatest, though the main text was done by Jan Brzezinski (Jagat) a long time ago. I think someone "edited" Jan's work and made it more clunky and broken. Plus the Sanskrit and Bengali citations are a mess. Unreadable really. Some of the other parts of the book were not done by Jan. They will challenge your creative imaginations. Anyway, here it is. Jiver Svarup o Svadharmo Part 1Jiver Svarup o Svadharmo Part 2Thank you so much for posting these Nitai-ji! I've started reading them this morning. Also, I will look into contacting the people mentioned at the beginning of the book to see if I can track down a copy somewhere. Radhe Radhe!!
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on May 21, 2019 8:13:45 GMT -6
I have decided to return to the topic of this thread and post a piece of the writing of Prabhupad Kanupriya Goswami, one of the real acaryas of the 20th century. I had a request for this book from someone recently. I used to sell them through Nitai's Bookstore, but we no longer have any copies to sell. I do have, however, a copy in my possession and I thought it might be a good idea to post a scan of parts of the book. It is one of his classic works. It is copyrighted and I encourage anyone interested in reading the whole work to try to purchase it from the addresses on the reverse side of the title page. If by chance someone is unable to acquire a print copy. Please inform me.I've been trying to reach any of the contacts on the publisher info page for this book with no luck. I called the contact in Tennessee, as soon as heard the name 'Kanupriya Goswami' he quickly said something and hung up the phone. I left messages with the contact in San Diego (found his phone number via Google). I also called the Press in Mayapur and no one speaking English there. Any further recommendations? Should I shoot off some snail mail to see if I can get some contact that way? Thanks! Radhe Radhe!
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Jun 7, 2019 4:06:16 GMT -6
My thought was to do a new edition of this work ( Jiver Svarup o Svadharmo)... Radhe Radhe! Happy Friday to all! I've come across a 99% complete copy of the book by Sri Kanupriya Goswami - Jiver Svarup O Svadharmo. Jagadananda Das-ji gave his blessings per the person who posted it (on Facebook). I have a couple of questions/requests... Can someone tell me where the following pages fall within the hard copy book: One (un-numbered page) is a photo of Kanupriya Goswami. The other un-numbered page starts with "The picture on the cover--a revealation" Also, I am missing pages numbered 116, 194, and 195. Once I get those I can create a complete pdf file of the book and make it available to all. The copy on Facebook is literally about 280 individual jpg files that you have to scroll through! Jai Nitai! Jai Gaur!
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Post by Nitaidas on Jun 7, 2019 10:15:46 GMT -6
Greetings Nilamadhava dasji,
I have the whole book scanned. Would that make it easier to combine into one pdf? I have posted three of the sections. There are another five. The only hitch is that when Jagadish was scanning he got the pages out of order a couple of times. Those need to be snipped and replaced in their proper places. The two unnumbered pages you mention are: the picture of Kanupriya Goswami comes after page 232 and before 233 and the page about the picture on the cover is on the inside of the back cover of the book.
I will continue to post the next sections of the book in the appropriate place in this thread. I can share the whole lot with you through Google Drive. Let me know what works best for you.
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