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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 21, 2008 6:12:07 GMT -6
I thought I had posted this before, but if I did I can't find it. It is the most recent version of Kanupriya Goswami's book On Association With the Great (Mahatsanga-prasanga). It will be the next book published by Blazing Sapphire Press after Baba Tinkadi's hagiography is completed. Mahat-sanga PrasangaThis work bears on the discussion in another thread about the nature and importance of sadhu-sanga. Comments and suggestions are as always welcomed.
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Post by Nitaidas on Aug 26, 2010 16:45:31 GMT -6
Here is the latest versin of Kanupriya Goswami's book On Associating With the Great (Mahatsanga-prasanga). It will be the next book published by Blazing Sapphire Press. Mahat-sanga PrasangaThe first chapter discusses the different kinds of faith one may have including the one needed for developing bhakti, thread-less or unqualfied faith (nirguNa-zraddhA). I still need to finish the introduction and there is one more section to finish translating. Ah yes, and all my wife's corrections. Those need to be made yet. Other than that, it is beginning to shape up.
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Post by madanmohandas on Aug 26, 2010 17:03:36 GMT -6
Very interesting reading Nitai. Have you done ' Jiver Svarup o svadharma' ? I have the one translated by Jagadananda das. Its good but there are a few typos and such errors. It is also divided in only two parts with no shorter chapters which it could have done with. Looking forward to the book.
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Post by Nitaidas on Aug 27, 2010 12:45:42 GMT -6
Very interesting reading Nitai. Have you done ' Jiver Svarup o svadharma' ? I have the one translated by Jagadananda das. Its good but there are a few typos and such errors. It is also divided in only two parts with no shorter chapters which it could have done with. Looking forward to the book. No, I have not redone Jiver Svarupa, though it really needs it. Perhaps I will get to that some day. I am sure that Jagat did a fine job on it, but somehow it fell into the hands of someone who thought he knew English and was "edited" by him. Now it is something of a mess. There are so many other works by Kanupriya Goswami that have not yet been done at all that I am concentrating on those. I am working on the first volume of his Sri Nama Cintamani. That is an important work and should be the next one out. Following that are the next two volumes and Goswami's "introductions" to the Nama books called Sri Sri Bhakti-rahasya-kanika and Sri Sri Raga-bhakti-rahasya-dipika. They are big works. It will take me quite some time to finish them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2010 14:02:27 GMT -6
Jay Nitai,
I think the last part of NamChintamani called "Namaparadh Darpan" i.e "Mirror of seeing Namaparadha" would be very important to modern english devotee circle which is very fundemental , unique , important, practical and useful work by Kanupriya Prabhu. This is about analysis of Namatattva and Aparadha and how to get protected from this disease and how to get cured from the same.
This is the work Kanu Prabhu considered his main responsibility to this world being from a Vaidya Family ( Kaviraja or Doctor as he was actually from his family inheritance ). He wanted to be Vaidya and an instruments in the hand of Mahaprabhu to show the path to avoid Aparadha which is a common infectious disease and has immense significance to destroy ones devotional life.
In Prabhus own word " let others ( other Mahatma ) taste the nector of higher Rasa, the great blessings of Mahaprabhu and let them write on it, I am being the part Mahaprabhus Vaidya family I will make sure to reveal essential nature and patterns of Aparadha and its cure so that rest of the devotee can make a way out of it to enter the higher realm of Rasa".
Jay Nitai
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Post by JD33 on Aug 27, 2010 15:45:21 GMT -6
Subrataji, Maybe you can help Nitai Dassji by translating those parts and books you have mentioned into English. I can then help with editing, etc..... What do you think? Here is a picture of the Blessed Kanupriya Gosvami: Attachments:
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Post by gerard on Aug 27, 2010 16:16:25 GMT -6
Nitaiji wrote in his introduction of Kanupriya Gosvami's " On Associating with Great Ones": "This rather enlightened British policy, it should be noted, was in marked contrast to the policies of some of the other major colonial powers, such as the Dutch and the Portugese, who prefered to keep the people of their colonies in the dark, fully dependent, and fully exploited." This reminded me of what a certain Dutch traveler wrote. This traveler was Jacob Haafner (1755-1809) who lived in Sri Lanka and India for 23 years. He knew Tamil and Bengali fluently and was proficient in Sanskrit. He loved the Indians and was fiercely anti-colonist and despised the work of the Christian missionaries of whom he thought they could better preach to the Europeans and leave the Inlanders alone because their religion was more sophisticated. Anyway, he wrote the "Story of a Terrible Famine Induced by the British in Bengal": "So the terrible famine raged in fertile Bengal. So over three million people were wiped off the face the earth by these British Monsters whose compatriots up till this very day still oppress them by the choisest means of suppression, and squeeze them out, and by thousands of detestable means obtain their properties and possessions in order to consume those in their native country in all pomp and circumstance! [...] "I fear I have tired my tender-hearted and highly esteemed readers with my tale of all these cruelties; even my heart refuses to bear it any longer. Anger and indignation fill my soul. [...] And out of love of humanity I would even myself become a Barbarian." in: Algemeene Vaderlandsche Letter-Oefeningen, Amsterdam 1807 The British did this by keeping the foods and grains in the storehouses because feeding the starving people did not raise enough money. They did this many times. Haafner also witnessed this in Madras in the 1770s. Haafner also produced a, in my opinion, rather mediocre retelling of the Ramayana. Attachments:
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Post by Nitaidas on Aug 28, 2010 12:18:22 GMT -6
Nitaiji wrote in his introduction of Kanupriya Gosvami's " On Associating with Great Ones": "This rather enlightened British policy, it should be noted, was in marked contrast to the policies of some of the other major colonial powers, such as the Dutch and the Portugese, who prefered to keep the people of their colonies in the dark, fully dependent, and fully exploited." This reminded me of what a certain Dutch traveler wrote. This traveler was Jacob Haafner (1755-1809) who lived in Sri Lanka and India for 23 years. He knew Tamil and Bengali fluently and was proficient in Sanskrit. He loved the Indians and was fiercely anti-colonist and despised the work of the Christian missionaries of whom he thought they could better preach to the Europeans and leave the Inlanders alone because their religion was more sophisticated. Anyway, he wrote the "Story of a Terrible Famine Induced by the British in Bengal": "So the terrible famine raged in fertile Bengal. So over three million people were wiped off the face the earth by these British Monsters whose compatriots up till this very day still oppress them by the choisest means of suppression, and squeeze them out, and by thousands of detestable means obtain their properties and possessions in order to consume those in their native country in all pomp and circumstance! [...] "I fear I have tired my tender-hearted and highly esteemed readers with my tale of all these cruelties; even my heart refuses to bear it any longer. Anger and indignation fill my soul. [...] And out of love of humanity I would even myself become a Barbarian." in: Algemeene Vaderlandsche Letter-Oefeningen, Amsterdam 1807 The British did this by keeping the foods and grains in the storehouses because feeding the starving people did not raise enough money. They did this many times. Haafner also witnessed this in Madras in the 1770s. Haafner also produced a, in my opinion, rather mediocre retelling of the Ramayana. Yes, you are right, gerardji. The British did do such things. One of Satyajit Ray's movies "Distant Thunder" is about just such a case in the 1940s (1910s?). I don't recall whether it was the British or wealthy Bengalis who withheld the rice then, but since the British were ruling they must have let it happen. Vast numbers of people starved. I can never say that I approve of British colonial rule in India. They bought cotton cheap in India, sent it to England to be woven into cloth and then sold it back to the Indians at high prices. The money flowed out of India in rivers. That was certainly a factor in India's abject poverty in the 20th century. And they stirred up trouble between the Hindus and Muslims. Still, on the black backdrop of that sordid colonial history there were a few bright spots. Educating the governed was one of them. As for Dutch and Portuguese colonial rule, there is nothing good to say about them. I would also say the same is unfortunately true of American Neo-colonialism. Imagine invading a sovereign country because one doesn't like the ruler and eventually killing him, starting up a puppet government, and making them pay for it all (in oil). Total cost of human life: over 600,000 by some estimates. Now that's sordid and you don't have to imagine it. Anyway thanks for commenting on the introduction. I am about to revise it and finish it. The outline at the end are points I plan to dsicuss. Suggestions are much welcome.
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Post by gerard on Sept 1, 2010 11:22:05 GMT -6
Of course I agree with you on the evils of colonialism, which made me think of the following. I only read a small portion of the CV literature but I can't remember anything specific on ethics (sadacAr?), a code of conduct.
Has somebody like Jiva Gosvami written a systematic Ethica?
There is reference in Gita 16.24, tasmāc chāstraṃ pramāṇaṃ tekāryākāryavyavasthitau, determine your standard by scripture as to what is to be done and what is not to be done. Usually taken to mean do as in Manu Smrti and the like, the 'lawbooks' which are barbaric to modern sensibilities (although it contains a nice alternative to those barbaric punishment in the form of a tour of the tirthas). On top of those punishments the Manu Smrti is a codification of that horrible caste-sytem by birth.
In CV there seems to be an almost 100% interest in what do I have to do to get to all levels of rasa, and sweetness and sidelong glances, horripilations and serving betel in a pale yellow sari for all eternity.
Nothing wrong with that of course but I wondered what do modern Gaudiya Vaisnavas say (or do[/b]) about the maltreatment of women and the handicapped, the dowry-murders, the poverty, etc. What I used to hear was something like "O, that is their karma" or some people saying words like jiva-doya and ahimsa but nothing more substantial.
Am I being too Christian? Love thy neighbour and all that. I can't read Bengali newspapers so I have no idea what gaudiya vaisnavas do. Do they speak out on matters of women rights, children rights and the other assorted underlying parties in Bengal? Or are they only trying to survive? I often read the Times of India but I never see any mention of these sort of things there. Are the CVs involved with organizations like the RSS and VHP?
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Post by Nitaidas on Sept 2, 2010 14:20:27 GMT -6
Of course I agree with you on the evils of colonialism, which made me think of the following. I only read a small portion of the CV literature but I can't remember anything specific on ethics (sadacAr?), a code of conduct. Has somebody like Jiva Gosvami written a systematic Ethica? There is reference in Gita 16.24, tasmāc chāstraṃ pramāṇaṃ tekāryākāryavyavasthitau, determine your standard by scripture as to what is to be done and what is not to be done. Usually taken to mean do as in Manu Smrti and the like, the 'lawbooks' which are barbaric to modern sensibilities (although it contains a nice alternative to those barbaric punishment in the form of a tour of the tirthas). On top of those punishments the Manu Smrti is a codification of that horrible caste-sytem by birth. In CV there seems to be an almost 100% interest in what do I have to do to get to all levels of rasa, and sweetness and sidelong glances, horripilations and serving betel in a pale yellow sari for all eternity. Nothing wrong with that of course but I wondered what do modern Gaudiya Vaisnavas say (or do[/b]) about the maltreatment of women and the handicapped, the dowry-murders, the poverty, etc. What I used to hear was something like "O, that is their karma" or some people saying words like jiva-doya and ahimsa but nothing more substantial. Am I being too Christian? Love thy neighbour and all that. I can't read Bengali newspapers so I have no idea what gaudiya vaisnavas do. Do they speak out on matters of women rights, children rights and the other assorted underlying parties in Bengal? Or are they only trying to survive? I often read the Times of India but I never see any mention of these sort of things there. Are the CVs involved with organizations like the RSS and VHP? [/quote] Good question, gerardji. I don't think that CV really has much to contribute in the way of ethics and morality. There is no work on ethics in the CV tradition that I know of. I guess its ethics are derived from the ethical tradition in which it appeared, Hinduism. Since it is a yoga system, it probably should placed in that context and yamas accepted as some of the basic guidelines for ethics. I have noticed that pretty much all Indic religions accept the yamas. In Buddhism they are called the precepts and I forget what they are called in Jainism. In Hinduism they are just called the yamas or the "restraints," but they are basically the same for all three. They are" 1. AhimsA - Non-violence 2. Satya - Not lying 3. Asteya - Not steaing 4. Brahmacarya - Celibacy or No misuse of sex 5. Aparigraha - No avarice One who follows these guidelines is certainly to be counted among the moral or ethical. In my opinion they are way better than the 10 commandments of the Judeo-Christian tradition. If anything should be posted on courtroom walls in the USA, it should be these. The 10 commandments really have very little to do with morality. There is a longer list of twelve yamas in the Bhagavata at 11.19.33, but I like the shorter list better. I don't think the longer list really adds much to those. Some seem to be somewhat redundant like mauna and satya. Anyway, I suggest that these are the basic ethical principles of CV, as of all Indic religions. Gerardji, do you regard yourself as a Christian? Or, were you just speaking culturally? What you are referring to as ethical is really more along the lines of social reform or service. I don't see much of an impetus in CV for that. Of course, individuals might do good things for others. Take Haridas Sastri's program of cow protection, for instance. Or, the various open feasts others hold in which all who come are fed. My own guru used to maintain a homeopathic medicine box and on a number of occasions I saw sick people come to him for diagnosis and medicine. But as a tradition, I don't think CV gets a very high score for social service.
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Post by gerard on Sept 3, 2010 10:33:10 GMT -6
Yes, in the practice of yoga the yamas and niyamas are the basis. And they are fine of course. I was just wondering how that code of conduct had seeped into Hindu life. The dictum "love thy neighbour" is not followed by everybody but everybody is aware of it and some try to practice it. Added to the Christian impulse was a more important influence of Humanism and Socialism on society here (Western-Europe) which led to all sorts of improvements for the weak and the sick in general (call it social reform or ethics).
In the case of Hinduism I'm disappointed at what's happening. I know of an organization you might have heard of, the Hare Krishnas of ISKCON who are also CV, and they were in the 70s and 80s practically a criminal organization with drugs and arms trafficking, all sorts of tax fraud, wife and child abuse and even murder. That's what happens if you don't stress ethics as part of the spiritual path.
There is an esoteric rule (I can't find the source right now but it is probably not Indian) that says, you can only take one step on the spiritual path if you take three steps on the moral path.[/b]
Yes, there is activity amongs the sadhus and swamis when it involves cows, last year they held an immense gou grama yatra all over India, but were are these sadhus in the case of the position of women, handicapped children or the insane? When social reform is needed? Are they too stoned to do anything then?
Sorry, about my tone but this a subject that always really gets to me.
And no, I'm not a Christian, I'm a descendent of a long line of atheists, socialists, free-masons and anarchists. I was converted to theism when I was 17 and read Thomas à Kempis' Imitation of Christ, but it didn't convert me to Christianity. I just can't fathom this Christ person.
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Post by Nitaidas on Sept 3, 2010 12:23:31 GMT -6
Yes, in the practice of yoga the yamas and niyamas are the basis. And they are fine of course. I was just wondering how that code of conduct had seeped into Hindu life. The dictum "love thy neighbour" is not followed by everybody but everybody is aware of it and some try to practice it. Added to the Christian impulse was a more important influence of Humanism and Socialism on society here (Western-Europe) which led to all sorts of improvements for the weak and the sick in general (call it social reform or ethics). In the case of Hinduism I'm disappointed at what's happening. I know of an organization you might have heard of, the Hare Krishnas of ISKCON who are also CV, and they were in the 70s and 80s practically a criminal organization with drugs and arms trafficking, all sorts of tax fraud, wife and child abuse and even murder. That's what happens if you don't stress ethics as part of the spiritual path. There is an esoteric rule (I can't find the source right now but it is probably not Indian) that says, you can only take one step on the spiritual path if you take three steps on the moral path.[/b] Yes, there is activity amongs the sadhus and swamis when it involves cows, last year they held an immense gou grama yatra all over India, but were are these sadhus in the case of the position of women, handicapped children or the insane? When social reform is needed? Are they too stoned to do anything then? Sorry, about my tone but this a subject that always really gets to me. And no, I'm not a Christian, I'm a descendent of a long line of atheists, socialists, free-masons and anarchists. I was converted to theism when I was 17 and read Thomas à Kempis' Imitation of Christ, but it didn't convert me to Christianity. I just can't fathom this Christ person.[/quote] Yes, CV which was originally reform-minded and anti-caste has become part of the establishment and worse, part of the most orthodox segment of the establishment. My evidence is that verse I have referred to before that I think should be part of the SiksAstaka making it a SiksA-navaka. NAham vipro na ca narapatir ...
People often focus on the servant of the servant of the servant part, and that I suppose is good. Humility is a good ethical stance in the world. But, I like the first part the most. It denies the caste-system and the varna-system. One can however plug in all kinds of other identifications there too: white, black, man, woman, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist. I take that as its extended message. Give up those identities which divide us and devote yourself to service. Service of what or whom? Is this where all that liberality gets taken back? It may be. Service of the servant of the servant of the husband of the gopis. After shedding all of our ideological clothing are we supposed to put one set back on? Vaisnavism? I think not. That idea runs counter to the meaning of the rest of the verse. Becoming the servant of the servant of the servant must mean serving all forms of life, because who is not a servant of Krsna? So service to all forms of life, not just cows, should be our essential nature. If we take that seriously, that is a little better than "love thy neighbor." Why just love one's neighbor? Doesn't that seem odd? What is so special about one's neighbor? One has to remember the context within which those words were framed. In those days people lived in ethnic communities. So loving one's neighbor did not mean what we think it means today. Anyway, I too am troubled by people in my tradition who pay more attention to cows than to the plight of women or of outcasts. I don't think that they represent the most shining examples of service in our tradition.
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Post by Ldd on Sept 3, 2010 13:33:32 GMT -6
It means that they haven't realized the absolute truth. All the souls are dear to krishna - being parts of him. For one who understands this, there is no question of even thinking ill of the most insignificant worm. He is supposed to feel lower than all.
People who haven't reached this understanding (99.99 percent of the population) will always be involved in offending, exploiting etc. We will observe this state of contradiction everywhere. Those who champion the cause of animal protection are not always vegetarian, even though they horde dozens of abandoned animals in their homes, their food depends on the slaughter of other kinds of animals. we mustn't dwell on the behavior of kanishtha devotees, hindu, or the ordinary people of the world. They are also struggling with conditionings, and are fault ridden.
just focus on one - the guru and krishna, and there would be no dissapointment
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Post by Ldd on Sept 4, 2010 7:18:36 GMT -6
once more i am trying to jump between the big mahant scholar vaisnavas - i dont know when my arrogance will end.
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Post by gerard on Sept 4, 2010 8:28:32 GMT -6
Yes, in the practice of yoga the yamas and niyamas are the basis. And they are fine of course. I was just wondering how that code of conduct had seeped into Hindu life. The dictum "love thy neighbour" is not followed by everybody but everybody is aware of it and some try to practice it. Added to the Christian impulse was a more important influence of Humanism and Socialism on society here (Western-Europe) which led to all sorts of improvements for the weak and the sick in general (call it social reform or ethics). In the case of Hinduism I'm disappointed at what's happening. I know of an organization you might have heard of, the Hare Krishnas of ISKCON who are also CV, and they were in the 70s and 80s practically a criminal organization with drugs and arms trafficking, all sorts of tax fraud, wife and child abuse and even murder. That's what happens if you don't stress ethics as part of the spiritual path. There is an esoteric rule (I can't find the source right now but it is probably not Indian) that says, you can only take one step on the spiritual path if you take three steps on the moral path.[/b] Yes, there is activity amongs the sadhus and swamis when it involves cows, last year they held an immense gou grama yatra all over India, but were are these sadhus in the case of the position of women, handicapped children or the insane? When social reform is needed? Are they too stoned to do anything then? Sorry, about my tone but this a subject that always really gets to me. And no, I'm not a Christian, I'm a descendent of a long line of atheists, socialists, free-masons and anarchists. I was converted to theism when I was 17 and read Thomas à Kempis' Imitation of Christ, but it didn't convert me to Christianity. I just can't fathom this Christ person.[/quote] Yes, CV which was originally reform-minded and anti-caste has become part of the establishment and worse, part of the most orthodox segment of the establishment. My evidence is that verse I have referred to before that I think should be part of the SiksAstaka making it a SiksA-navaka. NAham vipro na ca narapatir ...
People often focus on the servant of the servant of the servant part, and that I suppose is good. Humility is a good ethical stance in the world. But, I like the first part the most. It denies the caste-system and the varna-system. One can however plug in all kinds of other identifications there too: white, black, man, woman, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist. I take that as its extended message. Give up those identities which divide us and devote yourself to service. Service of what or whom? Is this where all that liberality gets taken back? It may be. Service of the servant of the servant of the husband of the gopis. After shedding all of our ideological clothing are we supposed to put one set back on? Vaisnavism? I think not. That idea runs counter to the meaning of the rest of the verse. Becoming the servant of the servant of the servant must mean serving all forms of life, because who is not a servant of Krsna? So service to all forms of life, not just cows, should be our essential nature. If we take that seriously, that is a little better than "love thy neighbor." Why just love one's neighbor? Doesn't that seem odd? What is so special about one's neighbor? One has to remember the context within which those words were framed. In those days people lived in ethnic communities. So loving one's neighbor did not mean what we think it means today. Anyway, I too am troubled by people in my tradition who pay more attention to cows than to the plight of women or of outcasts. I don't think that they represent the most shining examples of service in our tradition. [/quote] Almost all bhakti movements started with an anti-caste position. The exception is Tulasi-dasa with his Rama-carita-manasa, the "Bible of Northern India". He was a smarta brahmana in favor of a hereditary caste system and the ashrama system and what he had to say about women wasn't very nice either. I wonder whether he has such a stronghold on the Indian-Hindu mind that he has been capable to subvert the original anti-caste attitude of the other bhaktas. Or maybe the Hindus just can't handle the combination of karma and maya in a mature way. Simple people will say, "that is his karma" and on top of that "everything is maya anyway". Adrs-ji, you can jump arrogantly as much as you want but you seem to call me a big mahant scholar vaisnava. Please don't, God will kill a kitten every time you do that...
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