|
Post by Nitaidas on Jun 22, 2007 22:25:05 GMT -6
The Bhagavad-gita is a fascinating text. Who was it written by and when? And for what purpose? These are important questions in the textual criticism of the text. These are some of the questions I'd like to discuss in this thread.
The answers to these questions can reveal a whole new dimension to the Gita and explain some of its glaring anomalies. That it was not written by Vyasa seems rather obvious. It is first of all clearly a post-Buddhist work and it may be that Buddhism played an important role in the reason it was written.
So when was the Buddha? The traditional answer seems to place him in the 6th century BCE and extending into the 5th century. But, more recent studies have suggested that in actuality he lived in the middle of the 4th century BCE (History of Early Vedanta). The Gita then can be dated to the 3rd century BCE or later. It appears to date from a time when Buddhism was recognized as a real threat to Hinduism and it in many was a Hindu response to Buddhism. We shall look at some of the evidence for that as we proceed.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2007 13:01:23 GMT -6
The Bhagavad-gita is a fascinating text. Who was it written by and when? And for what purpose? These are important questions in the textual criticism of the text. These are some of the questions I'd like to discuss in this thread. The answers to these questions can reveal a whole new dimension to the Gita and explain some of its glaring anomalies. That it was not written by Vyasa seems rather obvious. It is first of all clearly a post-Buddhist work and it may be that Buddhism played an important role in the reason it was written. So when was the Buddha? The traditional answer seems to place him in the 6th century BCE and extending into the 5th century. But, more recent studies have suggested that in actuality he lived in the middle of the 4th century BCE (History of Early Vedanta). The Gita then can be dated to the 3rd century BCE or later. It appears to date from a time when Buddhism was recognized as a real threat to Hinduism and it in many was a Hindu response to Buddhism. We shall look at some of the evidence for that as we proceed. This is really interesting, but I hope I am not disturbing the flow. So the BG was not written by Vyasa and facts may indicates that it was used as a Hindu -philosophical- weapon against Buddhism? Ayrabhata dates the Mahabharata War at late 4th millennium BC (3138 BC or 3102 BC), but some scholars suggest that the Gita was added to the Mahabharata at a later date... Thus, whichever date it maybe, what is known about who wrote it? Great topic, Nitai-ji!
|
|
|
Post by Nitaidas on Jun 25, 2007 21:29:41 GMT -6
These are some interesting questions. The problem with that early date is that the Mahabharata is aware of the Greeks which it calls Yavanas (from Ionian). The Greeks were in India from around 330 BCE to about 250 BCE. Thus the Mahabharata was composed after that time. So goes the argument. I suspect that it is valid. The language of the Mahabharata is not that ancient (certainly not 5,000 years old).
There are a number of theories about how it was written, but the most recent and most plausible is that it was written in three generations, planned by one man, call him Vyasa, if you will, and executed by his disciples. Different disciples wrote different parts according to that overarching, unified plan. The Gita was part of that, I think. It fits so well into the text that I think it was an intended part of the original text, not a later edition.
I will try to make a case over the next few weeks for its being post-Buddhist and meant to counteract the rising Buddhist influence in the Hindu community. Let's see what that amounts to.
|
|
|
Post by subaldas on Jun 26, 2007 13:45:25 GMT -6
Karen Armstrong in The Great Transformation also supports this theory.
So far as Vyasa is concerned, I started doing a little translating in 1974 using a Sankrit-English dictionary and found that Vyasa means author. It's like anonymous. Also many in the ancient world wrote under the name of a patron saint.
|
|
|
Post by madanmohandas on Jun 27, 2007 2:00:43 GMT -6
According to the Visnu Puran Vyasa is a post held by different Rsis for the purpose of rearranging the veda. It supplys the names of the different Vyasas at the end of each Dvarapa yuga, The present Vyasa being the sage Krsna Dvaipayana. It's not anonymous at all.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2007 7:11:57 GMT -6
Nitai, you can't expect us to believe that the Gita was not spoken by Krsna. If it wasn't then what use is it for us? I am no expert, but don't all the commentators claim that it was spoken by Krsna? Many of them are considered acaryas. How can they be wrong?
|
|
|
Post by Nitaidas on Jun 27, 2007 21:03:36 GMT -6
Why not? If it weren't really spoken by Krsna, does that make it false? Here is what one of the great Vaisnavas of the past said about it. This is from Sri Krishna Prem' book The Yoga of the Bhagavat Gita:
"Though the author is unknown (for we can scarcely adopt the orthodox view that it was, as we have it, spoken by the historical Krishna on the battlefield of Kurukshetra) it is revered by Hindus of all schools of thought, and is one foot of the triple base on which the Vedanta is founded, the other two feet being the Upanisads and the Brahma-sutras." (xiii)
Then later he says: "To anyone who has eyes to see, the Gita is based on direct knowledge of Reality, and of the Path that leads to Reality, and it is of little moment who wrote it or to what school he was outwardly affiliated." (xiv)
A text can contain deep realizations without necessarily being what it says it is. I suspect this is true not only in the case of the Gita, but also in the case of the Bhagavata.
Krishna Prem, by the way, was a member of the Caitanya sampradaya through his guru, Sri Yasoda Mai, who was initiated by one of the Radharaman Goswamis.
|
|
|
Post by kingcobra on May 24, 2008 23:54:39 GMT -6
The Gita speaks of the code of the warrior, which is an internal battle rather than an external one. Certainly that crosses boundaries of historicity, but the book was written for a bygone era. We need to figure out how it is relevant today. What about the insurgents in Iraq versus Haliburton and Blackwater contractors? Different soldiers with different agendas, but who is to say which side is ultimately right in terms of what is good for humanity at large? We also have other more pressing issues than those faced by the Kurus and Pandavas, namely the environmental and overpopulation crises.
|
|
|
Post by kingcobra on Jun 12, 2008 4:23:40 GMT -6
Indian Jones refers to the Gita as the Hindu bible in the latest installment in the film series. Interesting take by some Hollywood writer (Spielberg or some ghost writer?). Certainly it is a central text from the classical period, but it is not a collection of books like the Old and New Testaments. I guess it gets the point across to Western audiences, who need some point of reference. Harrison Ford could have just been given a line that referred to the book by name, which I would rather have seen, since most people have heard of the text even if they never picked up a translation of it and tried to read it.
For CV, it is a core text, but only as an introduction to bhakti. There are no Bhagavad Gita saptAha festivals, only Bhagavat (Mahapurana) saptAha festivals, and generally the lectures around Braj-mandala and Nabadwip are on Goswami-granthas and CC. It does not mean that the Gita is ignored, it just not treated as a central text for CV theology.
|
|
|
Post by ajhi2 on May 25, 2011 11:13:35 GMT -6
at present and for past few decades, i'd strongly think it not important pre-C.C. the historicity of a document in an indic religion. ganesh may have written it. it's more believable to me then what stories i've read.
|
|
|
Post by ajhi2 on May 25, 2011 11:15:09 GMT -6
The Gita speaks of the code of the warrior, which is an internal battle rather than an external one. Certainly that crosses boundaries of historicity, but the book was written for a bygone era. We need to figure out how it is relevant today. What about the insurgents in Iraq versus Haliburton and Blackwater contractors? Different soldiers with different agendas, but who is to say which side is ultimately right in terms of what is good for humanity at large? We also have other more pressing issues than those faced by the Kurus and Pandavas, namely the environmental and overpopulation crises. If BG was studied it may have shed light on invading iraq or iran in the future.
|
|
|
Post by madanmohandas on May 27, 2011 12:28:33 GMT -6
I came accross an interesting and thought-provoking passage from the Aswamedha Parva, section 16 of Anugita Parva of the Mahabharata which might suggest that the Gita is in part or whole integral to it.
Janameyajaya said, When the high souled Kesava and Arjuna after slaying their enemies repaired to the assembly rooms, what conversation, O regenerate one, took place between them? Vaisampayana said, The son of Prtha, having recovered his own kingdom, joyously spent his time, without doing anything else, in the company of Krsna, his heart filled with delight, in that palace of celestial beauty. One day, those two listlessly proceeded to a particular part of the palace that looked, O king, like a veritable portion of Heaven. Themselves filled with delight, they were then surrounded by their relatives and attendents. Pandu's son, Arjuna, filled with joy in the company of Krsna, surveyed that delightful mansion, and then addressed his companion, saying, ' O mighty armed one, thy greatness became known to me upon the approach of the battle. O son of Devaki, thy form also, as the lord of the universe, then became known to me! What thy holy self said unto me at that time, O Kesava, through affection, has all been forgotten by me, O chief of men, in consequence of the fickleness of my mind. Repeatedly, however, have I been curious on the subject of those truths. Thou again, O Madhava, wilt repair to Dvaraka soon.' Vaisampayana continued, Thus addressed by him, Krsna of mighty energy, that foremost of speakers, embraced Phalguna and replied to him as follows. Vasudeva said, I made thee listen to truths that are regarded as mysteries. I imparted to thee truths that are eternal. Verily, I discoursed to thee on religion in its true form and on all the eternal religions. It is extreemly disagreeable to me to learn that thou didst not, from folly, recieve what I imparted. The recollection of all that I told thee on that occasion will not come to me now. Without doubt, O son of Pandu, thou art destitute of faith and thy understanding is not good. It is impossible for me, O Dhananjaya, to repeat in detail all that I said on that occasion.........
( Kisari Mohan Ganguli )
Krsna then proceeds to recount what a certain brahmana had narrated on the theme of Brahaman, Sankhya etc. etc.
|
|
|
Post by Ekantin on May 27, 2011 14:53:53 GMT -6
I came accross an interesting and thought-provoking passage from the Aswamedha Parva, section 16 of Anugita Parva of the Mahabharata which might suggest that the Gita is in part or whole integral to it. I was under the impression that this was somewhat well known, and that this further conversation between Krishna and Arjuna was known as the 'Anugita'. Alas I tried hard to find a nice copy of it during my India travels, but could never find one. I wonder if copies are available?
|
|
|
Post by madanmohandas on May 28, 2011 3:04:32 GMT -6
Yes well I am not familiar with the unabridged Mahabharata and so presently undertaking a reading of Ganguli's translation- its huge- 4 vols with about a thousand pages each. Yes it subtitled Anugita Parva and as you say it is well known I must confess to never having come accross it before. What I find so striking is not so much weather it implies validity to the asserssion that the Gita itself is indeed intragal to the Mahabharata where as many regard it as a later interpolation, but more radical is that Arjuna had forgotten the discourse and that Krsna was unable to reproduce it; its a wonder of wonders and fills me with admiration somehow. ha!
|
|
|
Post by madanmohandas on May 29, 2011 16:33:52 GMT -6
You can get Ganguli's translation from Amazon for about £50.
ISBN 978-81-215-0593-2
|
|